What Did John's Disciples and the Jews Dispute About?

T. A. McMahon:

We are going through the gospel of John and we are particularly concerned about, what is the

gospel, what is salvation and, of course, all of this we have in Christ?

Dave Hunt:

We’re always concerned about that, Tom, because that’s the issue.

T. A. McMahon:

Exactly, it’s incredibly important.  And, the book of John, that is, the gospel of John, is a good place and we keep recommending those who have not read the Bible, that’s a good place to begin.  Dave, we are picking up where we left off last week, which is John:3:24For John was not yet cast into prison.
See All....  “For John was not yet cast into prison.  Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying.  And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.”  Dave, we have been talking about baptism.  I think we have covered that pretty well in the last weeks.  What was the problem with these disciples of John?

Dave Hunt:

Well, it says there was a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying, that’s verse 25.  Verse 24 is very easy, it simply says John was not yet cast into prison, so he is still out there baptizing with his disciples.  It tells us that even though he baptized Jesus and was the forerunner, that now Christ is preaching, but John is still baptizing.  Now, the whole idea of baptism with the Jews was not what we understand believer’s baptism today.  This was not Christian baptism.  This was not the baptism that Christ commanded his disciples, go into all the world and make disciples, baptize them and so forth.  Christ hadn’t died for our sins.  It was about purification.  We were just over in Israel and everywhere, even up on Masada, that citadel, you know which the last one to fall to the Romans was, there was the mikveh, a number of them, there was the idea that things should be washed.  You wash your hands and the priests washed at the laver before they went into the tabernacle or to the temple.  So, that’s what the picture was.  This was a purification process.  It didn’t purify you but it indicated a willingness to be purified and to come before God—

T. A. McMahon:

Dave, are you saying that this dispute—explain the dispute—because John was baptizing unto repentance, right?

Dave Hunt:

Yeah, right.

T. A. McMahon:

Then, how did the Jews understand that?  I’m talking about the religious Jew.

Dave Hunt:

Well, the religious Jews understood, I think, in the context of the Old Testament that this was another way of coming before God and saying we need cleansing, we are repenting of our sins.  But now, the dispute arose—well wait a minute John, you’re kind of a rugged guy out here wearing camel’s hair and eating locusts and wild honey.  You’re not part of the establishment, you’re not a rabbi.  How come you are even qualified to be offering this ritual cleansing, calling people to repent and to be baptized and yet—?

T. A. McMahon:

John had the priesthood, didn’t he, because of his genealogy?

Dave Hunt:

But every priest was not part of those who called people to the baptismal service.  That I don’t know, Tom, but he certainly is not acting as a priest, he is not in the temple and he is not part of rotation into the temple and so forth.  He’s not acting as a priest, he’s not a rabbi.  I think that would be part of the dispute.  Then, another part of the dispute was, it goes on later on, they are asking, well, Jesus is out there baptizing and now you are baptizing, this is a little bit confusing.  How does your baptism differ from his baptism and why is he baptizing and so forth?  This is actually what it is talking about.  They say in verse 26—we didn’t get to verse 26—“And they came unto John, and said unto him,”—this is what the dispute was—“Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan to whom thou bearest witness, behold, the same baptizeth and all men come to him.”  So apparently, less and less people were coming to John to be baptized and more of them were going to Jesus to be baptized.  Well, that raises another question. What was this baptism? And we read it last week I think, John:4:1When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
See All..., “When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples.)  He left Judea, and departed again into Galilee.”

T. A. McMahon:

Dave, can I ask you a question?  You know, somebody asked me this a while back and I thought it was an interesting question.  The baptism of John, even the baptism of the disciples of Jesus here, couldn’t that have meant salvation for those—I’m not talking about the baptism itself—but they were preaching the Messiah to come, they were preaching repentance.  And, we know prior to Christ instituting baptism for believers, going to the cross and so on, that all Old Testament saints looked forward to something.  On what basis?  It was on the basis of God going to send the Messiah, so they looked forward to the cross.  Could this baptism, not the baptism itself again but this event on John’s part, could that have led people to Christ, to the Messiah?

Dave Hunt:

Well, he pointed out that Christ was the Lamb of God, this is the one that I am preparing the way for, and this is the Messiah.  So, he was calling people to repent, to be prepared for the Messiah.  Now that was kind of a different idea because most Jews were looking for a Messiah who would lead an army.  There were all kinds of Messiahs that came along.  Barhokva for example, was one.  Some time later there were a number who came and their idea was that they would lead an army and overthrow Roman rule and set the people free.  So this was a different idea.  The Messiah is going to bring cleansing from sin, and you need to repent of your sin, and be prepared for the cleansing that the Messiah will bring.  They did not understand how the Messiah would bring this cleansing.

T. A. McMahon:

Right.  They didn’t’ have all of the information, I mean, even the apostles were somewhat clueless right up until the time Jesus was taken.

Dave Hunt:

Right.  The disciples didn’t understand.  They didn’t want Jesus to be crucified.

T. A. McMahon:

But my point is that do you think the element of believing could have been promoted by John and then followed by baptism?

Dave Hunt:

I believe it was preparing them; it was preparatory, because this is not sufficient in spite of the fact that John Calvin, for example, in his institutes says that the baptism of John was the same as the baptism of the apostles.  We have a problem then because in Acts 19, Paul rebaptizes those who were baptized unto the baptism of John.  So, these are two different baptisms.  But the baptism of the disciples of Jesus right now, I think, was the same preliminary kind of baptism.  We need cleansing, we are looking forward to the Messiah who will bring this cleansing but they didn’t know that He would have to die for their sins and this is what Jesus explained to Nicodemus earlier in this same chapter.  He had to be born again.  And, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the son of man must be lifted up. He’s going to have to die for their sins.  They didn’t understand that but they were looking forward to this.  Now, it’s very interesting because it says Jesus himself didn’t baptize anyone.  Now if this baptism would save people then you would think that that surely the Savior of the world would baptize.  It was a sign, it was a symbol, it was symbolic, and it was looking forward to the cleansing that would come through the blood of Christ although they did not understand that at that time.  So, here was the dispute and I’m sure they disputed—What is wrong with the purification that we have already?  Why are you calling the people out and what authority do you have and so forth?  And then, you’ve got this Jesus that you said is the Lamb of God and you point Him out as the Messiah.  Now he’s baptizing over there.  Now what does all of this mean?  I think that’s what the dispute was about.

T. A. McMahon:

Dave, let me go to the answer the scriptures give.  John brings the bottom line here in verse 28.  It says, “Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:  but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice:  this my joy therefore is fulfilled.  He must increase, but I must decrease.”