Tom: Two things about this week’s feature article of our program—number one, Dave, we are in the final chapter of your book, Dave Hunt’s latest book, Judgment Day, Islam, Israel, and the Nations, and the conclusion is in sight. That’s number one. Number two, we’ll definitely be discussing the Antichrist, which we threatened to do for the last two weeks at least. So, what do you think?
Dave: So, let’s go, Tom, you’re guiding the questions.
Tom: Okay, but—well, I’ll talk about it at the end of the program, but maybe we won’t get through it this week or next week because there are some appendices in your expanded edition.
Tom: We could have a potpourri of appendices. What do you think?
Dave: Sounds great.
Tom: Okay! Dave, when people hear the term “Antichrist,” for some it’s just mythology, it’s not a real person; some do believe he’s a real person. As I mentioned, I think, a week or so ago, the Roman Catholic Church, in the Catholic dictionary, at least, says that the Antichrist is a real person.
Dave: Of course.
Tom: So, what about it?
Dave: That’s what the Bible says.
Tom: First and foremost.
Dave: Yeah, a lot of hype, of course, from Hollywood—a lot of false ideas in the church as well as in Hollywood.
Tom: Well, you said “Hollywood”— Dave, I was at 20th Century Fox. I remember a script came in—and I was in publicity and advertising at that point, before I got into writing.
Dave: You weren’t a believer at that point.
Tom: No, I wasn’t a believer. But a script came in (and I used to like to read all the scripts), and it was on The Omen, and it was a pretty fascinating script. Of course, I had no biblical understanding, or very little, at that point in time, but it was, as you said, this is what lends to the so-called legend or myth of this individual.
Dave: A lot of sensationalism.
Dave: Well, “anti” is a Greek prefix, which actually has two meanings. Most people don’t know that. They think of “anti” as opposed to or against—but it also means “in the place of” or “a substitute for,” and I believe the Antichrist will (and I’m getting this from the Bible) will embody both—he indeed will oppose Christ viciously, but in the most clever and effective way he could: by pretending to be Christ. I always consider Constantine to be the first Antichrist, because Antichrist would have to be involved with Christianity. There are a lot of pagans who were opposed to God and so forth.
Tom: Dave, I would say, the biblical best example I can think of would be Antiochus Epiphanes—well, around what? 200 BC, somewhere around in there? But after the book of Malachi, and before the New Testament.
Dave: Yeah, probably in the 160s—I don’t know, Tom, I’m not great on history, maybe 170. Of course, Constantine is not in the Bible, but Constantine claimed to be a Christian. And did he claim to be Christ? Well, he was the first one who took the title, Vicarious Christi. Now, the popes have that title today. They took it from him, actually. You remember, in the Middle Ages there was a phony document that was being circulated called, the Donation of Constantine. In those days the popes did not claim to have gotten their authority from Peter, or from being the successors of Peter. They hadn’t dreamed up that idea yet, they got it from Constantine, who supposedly was healed by a pope of leprosy, and because of that he willed to them the Lateran Palace, and he moved off to Constantinople, which today is Istanbul, and he left the popes in charge, and so forth, and they got all of their regalia from the emperors.
Tom: Pontificus Maximus.
Dave: Right, anyway he called himself Vicarius Christi. That’s Latin, the English translation is Vicar of Christ. Well, “Vicarious” is the Latin equivalent, interestingly enough, of the Greek, “anti.” So, Vicarious Christi, literally, I guess a literal translation would be “antichrist,” but it doesn’t mean what most people would think, okay?
So, I believe the Antichrist will pretend to be Christ in some form. “Christ-come-back-again,” the latest reincarnation of the Christ consciousness—I don’t know what, and I think that Christianity, not Islam, not atheism, Christianity will be the false world religion, in my opinion. Because you have the Catholic Church prominently involved in this, and the pope will not be the Antichrist. And I know that down through the ages, well, the dissenters, they almost all accused the pope of being the Antichristt. They did talk about the Vatican being the Woman on the Beast, of the Catholic Church being the Woman on the Beast. And, of course, that’s rather interesting because, what do we have today, Tom? You can probably think of more than I can. In front of the World Parliament Building you have this animal, this beast like a bull, with a woman riding on it. It’s a symbol of European union, the stamps, the coins—and it’s amazing how prominently a woman on a beast figures over there.
But anyway, now, Constantine, then, if we want to understand the Antichrist, I would say, go to Constantine. Now, he had a phony conversion, and I don’t think that the Antichrist, of course, is not going to claim to have a phony conversion. He will be the reincarnation of something.
Tom: Well, you don’t mean that literally, because we don’t believe it.
Dave: Right, right. But Jesus, remember, said, in John 5, “I am come in my Father’s name, and you receive me not. If another comes in his own name [and he’s really saying another will come], him you will receive.
So, Jesus, everything he did, it was in the name of the Father. “I only do those things that please the Father. Whatever the Father does, I do,” you know, “whatever He wants me to do,” and so forth. “I came to do the will of him that sent me.”
But Antichrist (and, of course, Jesus was rejected—“despised and rejected of men.” But Antichrist will come in his own name; he will claim to have his own credentials, he will claim to be the Christ. You’ve got that in Matthew 24: “Many shall come in my name saying, I am the Christ.” John, in 1 John chapter 2, says (I think it’s verse 18), “You know that Antichrist will come.” But there are already many antichrists, so, there are a lot of them who came along. I remember (I don’t think I ever mentioned it on the radio), I remember being in India in a market and here was a big—well, it wasn’t like an ad, it was like a poster: three pictures of, obviously, the same guy in different hats and different clothes. And under the first one it said, “I was Krishna,” and under the next one it said, “I was Buddha.” And then, under the next one, it says, “I am Christ,” and it gave a phone number to call for a spiritual counsel.
I don’t know how many thousand there are of people who claim to be Christ today. A lot of them are complete loonies, but some of them are demonically inspired. But this is not the head honcho. So, John says, “Antichrist is going to come.” Now, there are a lot of phonies around already.
Tom: Dave, when you mentioned earlier that the religion of the Antichrist is going to be Christianity . . .
Dave: A false Christianity.
Tom: . . . a false Christianity—people may have a hard time grasping that, because I don’t think they recognize that the Bible teaches that in the last days there is going to be an apostate church, and “apostate” means it had to withdraw from something, or turn against something. So, it’s got to be an anti-Christianity—an anti-biblical Christianity, I think is a better way to say it.
Dave: Tom, we already have it. For example, what was the latest Barna poll? I can’t remember, but I think 35 percent of the people who call themselves born again, did not believe in the resurrection. About the same number as . . .
Tom: So, what were they born to?
Dave: Yeah! They did not . . . I mean the resurrection of Christ. They did not believe that Jesus is God, they didn’t believe in His deity. And you have so many major denominations today (not too likely to find it among the Baptists, although some; certainly not among the Catholics), but they don’t want this bloody religion, this blood, and how . . . Jesus didn’t die for our sins, you know. “He’s a good man, set a wonderful example for us to follow.” And the world is going to love Antichrist. They will worship him.
So, it’s going to be a bloodless Christianity. It’snot about someone who died for our sins—although, you see, there again, Tom, we have (I’m just giving my opinion now, a lot of people would disagree with me), in Revelation chapter 13, it says (talking about the beast), seven heads, ten horns, and I saw one of his heads wounded, as it were,to death, and the deadly wound was healed.”
Now, from that, you get all this talk about [how] Antichrist will be someone who comes back from the dead. But it’s only one of his heads that was wounded, “as it were unto death,” and the deadly wound was healed. So, it’s a healing—not a resurrection.
Now, whether people will think he came back from the dead—a wound to the Antichrist’s head . . . you know, I’m not sure what it means. I would rather consider it’s talking about the Roman Empire—that the Roman Empire was “wounded, as it were, to death.” But you know that the kings and—well, they call them by different names now—the prime ministers, or premiers, or whatever they are, of European countries, have all been looking forward to a revival of the Roman Empire. And this is what the Bible portrays, and the Antichrist will be at the head of that.
So, there is a real man coming, and he will be accepted by Israel. I think we mentioned it, maybe two or three years ago on this program. I remember a couple of sixteen-year-old guys, evangelical Christians, were in Israel. They wanted to find a rabbi who spoke English. (Do you remember that incident?) And when they found one, and they were talking to him and asking him what he thought about the Messiah, and they said, “Well, of course, we believe the Messiah has already come. He’s going to come back a second time.”
And the rabbi said, “No, we don’t believe that. We are still looking for the Messiah, waiting for him.”
And then these young men asked, “Well, how would you recognize him when he comes?”
Unhesitatingly, the rabbi said, “He will bring peace.” And, of course, you would get that in Daniel:8:25, thereabouts. (Don’t ever take the verse that I say, because I don’t even try to remember the verse, it’s just somewhere on the page there.) But it says, “Through peace he will destroy many.” How do we know this is the Antichrist? It says, “He will stand up against the Prince of Princes, and he will be broken without hand.”
So, he will have great power over the world, but when he stands up against Christ, then he will be destroyed—and when is that? (See, Tom, I say it so often, but I love this book, the Bible. You cannot escape it! It’s written by 40 different men over a period of 1,600 years. Most of them didn’t know one another, different times in history, different cultures—it all meshes together!) So, he’s going to stand up against the Prince of Princes, the King of Kings, you know. Well, you go to Revelation 19, and that’s exactly what it says. The Antichrist comes out with his armies to meet this One who is coming on the white horse. (Now, not a literal white horse, of course. It’s symbolic).
But Christ is returning at the Second Coming with the armies of heaven, “clothed in white raiment, fine and clean, which is the righteousness of saints,” Revelation 19. There has just been a wedding, He’s just been married to his Bride, the church, and she comes with Him, and the Antichrist goes out with his armies to meet Him! He knows—Satan, I guess, lets him know—and he will be destroyed.
Now, Tom, I talked too long, just interrupt me, but give me another moment here. I’ve been at prophecy conferences where dear friends of mine, because of there are certain verses, “He will come from Bozrah with his garments red with blood,” and so on—and they even lay out the whole campaign, you know, where Christ destroys this army, and then He comes over here . . . Look, it’s going to take a word, and I like what Martin Luther said, at least in that hymn, “One little word will fell him.” It’s not a battle. I mean, we’re not going to be there with swords and fighting people. It’s over in a moment—the rescue of Israel and the destruction of the armies of Antichrist.
But anyway, he will be accepted by Israel, as Jesus said in John 5, and “He will cause the temple to be rebuilt.” And the word there—and you know, you and I, Tom, we don’t know anything about Greek and Hebrew. We both know a little Hebrew and a little Greek, and they are partners in a delicatessen, that’s about as close as we get.
Tom: Now, Dave, you know, you say that, and sometimes people take you seriously. At the very least, we know how to read and we can read the experts in Greek and Hebrew. And so, folks, we are not trying to put down scholarship. But we’re just saying that you can understand this without being a Greek scholar or a Hebrew scholar, and it doesn’t become so esoteric that only these guys can figure it out.
Dave: But sometimes they make it that way. Tom, you remember, when we were talking about (in the newsletter), talking about “By his stripes we are healed,” and we’re saying that this is not the beating of the Roman guards. And I made the audacious statement that it’s not the beating of the guards! And—“stripes”—I’m sorry, King James-only folks (I use the King James), that ain’t right! It’s singular in Hebrew. Wow! You remember the letters we got from all these would-be Greek scholars, and, by God’s grace, some real Greek scholars came to my rescue! And one of them, General Shimon Erem, one of the most celebrated retired Israeli generals in history—in every war, wounded seven times. I think he’s still active, but I wouldn’t try to say.
Tom: But you would think he would know Hebrew.
Dave: You would think so. And he wrote a letter to us, because he gets The Berean Call, and he said, “You are right! That is singular.” And I just checked it out with a guy from the Mossad—I think he probably knows Hebrew. While I was checking out with him, not only that, but in Daniel 9, it says in the King James that “he will confirm the covenant with many for a week.” And, “Oh, the Antichrist is going to sign this or confirm this.” No! I happen to know, it means he will enforce this covenant, okay? I just asked a member of the Mossad that I happen to know and, “Yes, that’s what it means!”
So, he is going to force the world to accept the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, and then he’s going to put his image there.
Tom: Well, Dave, you referred to Daniel. Let me go over some scriptures for our listeners so they can check these out themselves. Daniel 8, verses 23 and 24 (I’m actually quoting from your book). . .
Dave: See, I said “25.” I was off by one verse. Not too bad!
Tom: Well, this has to do with the coming ruler, whom the Bible talks about and calls the Antichrist: “And in the latter time of their kingdom . . . a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences (now, Dave, do jump in if you want to explain some of these things to us) shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy the mighty . . “
Dave: I’ll interrupt there. I keep trying to show people how the Bible meshes together! So, it’s “not by his own power.” What does Revelation 13 say? “It is the dragon who gives him his seat and his authority.” So . . .
Tom: Dragon meaning?
Tom: …the adversary.
Dave: That’s Revelation 13—and Revelation 12 makes it very clear—the red dragon is Satan.
Tom: “He shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. Ye have heard that Antichrist shall come.” So, this begins in Daniel, and then we go to the New Testament, 2 Thessalonians:2:8-12: “And then shall that Wicked one be revealed . . . whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
Dave: So, in Daniel:8:24, “Through peace he will destroy many.” So, Israel will accept him as the Messiah because he brings peace, and he will force the world to accept the rebuilding of the Temple. They think that’s marvelous, but then he’s going to put his own image there. And this is the abomination, the work of desolation, Daniel warned about, Jesus talked about it. When you see that, Jews, get out of there, because God’s judgment is going to come!
Tom: Well, Revelation 13 (you referred to it earlier), 13:8-9: “And they worshipped the beast saying: Who is able to make war with him? And power was given him over all kindreds and tongues and nations, and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Dave, it’s hard for some people to believe that a whole world, especially since we see what happens in religions . . . I mean, you have, just within the last week or so, almost a civil war going on in Iraq between the Sunnis and the Shiites, and they are supposed to be in the same religion. So, how is that going to work?
Dave: Well, Tom, I think there is only one way the world will be reunited. We’ve talked about it often—the Rapture. If a hundred million people—I don’t know how many it will be, there’s a little over two billion professing Christians. Could one out of twenty, one hundred million, be real Christians that are going to be taken in the Rapture? Maybe only fifty million? One out of forty? I don’t know. But if fifty million people suddenly vanish from this planet, we can’t even imagine the reaction—terror, stark, raving terror! Who took them? Where did they go? Why didn’t they take me? This is a phenomenon you know, “Beam me up, Scotty!” We’re already prepared for this. Is it an UFO invasion? Invisible UFOs or whatever—they took them off to a slave planet or something? All kinds of scenarios you could come up with. You could write some great movies about that, and I guess they already have.
But the world is terrified, and, Tom, that’s the only thing that will unite the world. You’re going to unite Sunnis and Shiites, you’re going to unite capitalists and communists, you’re going to unite Muslims and Christians so-called.
Tom: Or, you’re going to have to terrorize them, in effect.
Dave: Oh, this world will be so terrified! And a man arises; he’s got the answer, as you’ve just read from 2 Thessalonians—he has all the power of Satan, with lying signs and wonders, and he tells them, “You take this mark, you won’t be taken. I know where they went. I’m negotiating to get them back.” Tom, it’s the only thing that would unite the world.
Tom: And, incredibly, Dave, it’s going to be a form of Christianity—a positivized . . . something that everybody can get into, something that’s ecumenical, and so on.
Dave: Exactly. John Marks Templeton, who gives the Templeton prize, he talks about it: a religion that all the world can accept—not only all religions can accept it but even all the extra-terrestrials can accept it. And this is what he gives his prize for, but we don’t have time to talk about that.
Tom: Next week we’re going to cruise through the appendices, and that should be our conclusion.
Dave: I’d like to be here and see that.
Tom: I hope you’re here—you are, Dave!