What Made Many of Jesus' Disciples Turn Away?

Tom:

We are going through the gospel of John and currently we are in chapter 6 and we are going to pick up with verse 64.  “But there are some of you that believe not.  For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”  Dave, is this any kind of determinism here?

Dave:

He is not determining it, he is not causing them not to believe him, he just happens to know who they are.

Tom:

Because he’s God.

Dave:

That’s right.  The fact that he knows what they are going to do does not make them do it.

Tom:

Verse 65, “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’”

Dave:

Well Tom, maybe we ought to back up because some people may have just tuned in.  Why are there some who believe not? Because Jesus has said something pretty tough and you had better go back and get the tapes maybe or look at the Bible yourself.  We’ve talked about it—“you must eat my flesh, drink my blood and so forth or you have no life in you,” and we have dealt with that, and just going back to verse 63—“it’s the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profits nothing.  The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life,” and we have dealt with that over the last few weeks and it’s very important and so, some of the disciples walk away from him.  They can’t take this, but the problem is they don’t really believe anyway.  They want him to say what they want him to say.  They have their own version like we were just talking about Islam.  You’ve got your own version of Christianity, your own version of Jesus Christ, so you don’t go along with what he says.  But he knows and back in John 2, we read that when he was in Jerusalem at the feast day, seeing the miracles that he did, many believed in his name, but Jesus didn’t commit himself to them, it says, because he knows all men—he knew what was in them.  And then in contrast we had Nicodemus, the Pharisee, and Jesus dealt with him sincerely because he knew that this man would really take the truth if he understood it.  When we get over to John 8, we will find a number of other people, verse 30, I think, it says, “As he spake these words, many believed on him.”  Now, it says they believed in him—what it means is they believed he was the Messiah, but they had a wrong idea of the Messiah.  So, Jesus soon has to say to them, “You are of your father, the devil,” and they finally take up stones to stone him.  So, this is what it is talking about here.  Not everyone that claimed to be a follower of Christ really believed the truth about Jesus, they had their own agenda, but he knows ahead of time and we’ve talked about that in the past.  The fact that God knows what Mr. Jones will do tomorrow does not make Mr. Jones do it.  It only indicates that God knows what he is going to do.  Well, you say, but Mr. Jones has to do what God knows he is going to do, otherwise God would be wrong, his foreknowledge would be wrong.  No, God is looking at this universe from outside.  Time is a feature of this physical universe which God created out of nothing and God is not part of this universe, he is not bound by it.  So, what seems to us to be past, present, and future is one continuous NOW, to God and he sees it from outside and the fact that he knows that he is observing it does not make it happen, but he knows what is going to happen.  And if God didn’t know what man was going to do by his own free will, if man’s free will could trip God up and cause his foreknowledge to be wrong, then the only other alternative you have is, well then, God must cause everything to happen and that’s how God knows everything that will happen because he is the cause behind it all.  We cannot say that God causes evil.  So, God is observing this from outside.  There is no past, present, or future with him, he knows what is going to happen, and Jesus knew their hearts.

Tom:

Yeah, but Dave, doesn’t verse 65 indicate some kind of cause here?  It says, “And he said, therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”

Dave:

Well Tom, here again, and you know I just finished a book on this. On Calvinism and God willing, it should be out there soon and I go into great detail in this.  This is a scripture that causes some people to think that there are certain ones that God has predestined to salvation, there are others that he has predestined to be lost and there is nothing that either one can do about it— “No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”  Earlier in the chapter it says, “Except my Father draw him.”  Well, it’s like when Jesus—when we get to it in John 15—that Jesus says, “You haven’t chosen me, I have chosen you.”  Well, it doesn’t mean that they didn’t have some choice to make.  This is what any employer could say to his employees.  I have had several hundred employees in the past, when I was in the business world.  I could say to each employee, “You didn’t choose me, I chose you.”  But that doesn’t mean that they didn’t have to agree.  All I am saying is you couldn’t push yourself on me, you couldn’t force me to hire you, I have the final say.  And, Jesus is saying, “No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”  Now that is simply saying look, you can’t force yourself on Christ, you can’t even come to him unless this is allowed, “it is given of the Father.”  But that is not saying that he only allows certain ones to come any more than to say, “You didn’t choose me, I chose you,” is saying you didn’t have any choice to make in this.  No one can come unless it is given him of the Father, but what does the Father want to do?  Well, John:3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
See All..., we had that three chapters ago—“For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish.”  I believe the Father draws everyone; he wants everyone to come to Christ.  But this is God’s plan, this is his program, we didn’t come up with this, we didn’t decide on it, we didn’t invent salvation and so forth.  But God is not willing that any should perish, the scripture tells us that over and over.  And, I think that’s all that it’s saying here.

Tom:

In verse 66, it seems to me they indicate a choice here— “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.”  Not because they couldn’t come to him, they were drawn, as you said.

Dave:

They made a choice.  The scripture says, “If any man go back”— well then they must have come, to some extent—“my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”  And then the writer to the Hebrews says, “We are not of those that draw back under perdition, but those who believe to the saving of the soul.”  So, if you draw back, you must have been drawn. God is drawing everyone, but some are not willing to go all the way and, as you point out in verse 66, I think it explains that clearly.  Otherwise, I would have to say, God pushed some of them away, because he had predestined them to be lost and he didn’t want them to come and so he pushed them away and wouldn’t let them come.  I don’t think that’s—

Tom:

So they never had a hope, they never had a prayer, they had nothing.  They were determined to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Dave:

Well, God had determined it.  I don’t think that is consistent with God’s nature, I don’t think that it is rational because, all through the Old Testament, for example, you have God pleading and weeping over his people Israel.  He sends his prophets, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and so forth, Isaiah, and he pleads with them to repent.  Now God is pleading with people to repent who can’t repent, whom he has predestined to eternal damnation and he just chooses not to give them the grace to repent, he chooses not to draw them and yet, he weeps over them and pleads with them to come, but they can’t come to him unless he draws them and he chooses not to draw them?Tom, that’s not rational, it doesn’t make sense.

Tom:

Dave, let me press another part of that.  If God knows where they are going to end up, because he has all knowledge, why would he plead with them?

Dave:

Because he is doing everything that he can to draw them to him.  The very fact that—look, if I know that someone is going to reject me, that doesn’t mean that I can’t try to draw them, I can’t offer myself to them, offer my reconciliation and love and forgiveness, even though I know that it’s hopeless.  Still, it’s according to God’s character to do this.  He is showing his mercy and his love so that no one, in other words, in eternity someone could say, why didn’t you give me a chance, why didn’t you try to help me.  Well, God says, I knew you wouldn’t come.  Oh, but I would have if you had, you know, tried.

Tom:

He has to demonstrate his love in real time.

Dave:

He definitely does, and it is because he loved them.

Tom:

Dave, these next two verses—well, 68 but let me go to 67 first.“Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?”  This next verse, this is one of my favorite verses in all the scripture.  “Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life.”  Man, every time I think about, man, I’m bummed out about this or, you know, things aren’t going my way and I think, wait a minute, where am I going to go?  He has the words of eternal life.

Dave:

And that’s important, Tom, the words of eternal life.  It’s not that God can just make a bookkeeping entry in heaven and now you are forgiven and you have eternal life.  No, you must believe the gospel—“whosoever believeth in him should not perish”—there are words that we must believe.  We are “born again” Peter says, by the Word of God.  And this is the Word which by the gospel was preached unto you, Jesus is, in fact, the living Word, he is the bread of God that came down from heaven.”  So there is something we must believe—Romans:1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
See All.... “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:  for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes it,” and that’s why Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel,” because it is through the Word of God to the gospel preached, if they will believe this, that they are saved.