Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. It’s great to have you with us. In today’s program, Tom concludes a two-part series with guest Larry DeBruyn as they address the topic: What Is Quantum Spirituality? Here’s TBC executive director, Tom McMahon.
Tom: Thanks, Gary. Today, part two of our program with Larry DeBruyn, and as we mentioned last week, Larry and I spent some time together in South Africa, which was an absolutely incredible experience, but Larry’s also going to be one of the speakers at our conference in August. And his topic, his subject – you know, we’ll cover some of that, but…I don’t know, folks, who knows anything about “quantum spirituality”? Who knows anything about a philosophy that’s playing into the hands – or, actually, they’re utilizing it – of the false signs-and-wonders gang, the Nephilim gang? I mean, we could go on and on to show you how there is a connection between this…I called it a pseudo-science, but Larry corrected me last week; there is some science involved, but, again, it’s a philosophy. It’s an idea. It’s a concept. And this concept is wooing people. It’s drawing people to…you know, as I said, the false signs-and-wonders group are using this to support their false theology, their false teaching.
So, again, Larry, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.
Larry: Amen! It’s good to be with you again.
Tom: I don't want to go back over the last part of last week’s program, but I think it’s important. If you’d just give us some things that you did cover last week – I mean, we have the old physics, Isaac Newton; and then we have the quantum theory of physics. Now, simply – you mentioned it was a philosophy. But it’s also a concept that people are trying to make work for their own erroneous teachings. Is that right?
Larry: Well, yes. What they’re trying to do is they’re trying to make a wedding take place between Christianity and the new quantum physical worldview, because they want to keep up to date. So, it’s an attempt to become relevant to this new way of looking at reality. Christianity naturally - although, of course, if it ended in what we could call theism, or deism, in some instances - found great support with the Newtonian worldview. But suddenly, you introduce the idea of chance into the system… For example, chaos theory is an aspect of quantum physics, and chaos theory would propose, somewhat ludicrously, that a butterfly flapping its wings in the Congo could cause a hurricane in the Atlantic because the whole reality in which we live is interconnected, so the slightest little disturbance in one part of the system, which is our world, can cause the rest of the system to go bonkers!
And so, to try to get a handle on how God is sovereign in this, and how God created this and allowed this to happen – the role of God in this is difficult, for some people. For me, it’s very simple. I see “cosmos” in Genesis 1, and I see “chaos” with the curse in Genesis 2. Chaos is the result of the curse.
But given the powers inherent within the universe in which we live, there’s this brand of spirituality now that wants to tap into these powers because they view that within these powers there exists the energy to do great signs and wonders – greater than what Jesus did. And, you know, we see something like this where, in Matthew 7, Jesus said, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? Many signs and wonders?” And then Jesus is going to say to them, “Depart from me. I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness.”
So we know that the occurrence of signs and wonders do not authenticate people as being men and women of God. And so, there’s this counterfeit aspect, and I believe that this quantum physics understanding of the universe is an attempt on their part, that is, the New Apostolic Reformation, to make legitimate the idea that they’re going to do great signs and wonders in fulfillment of the coming of the “Second Pentecost,” and through these signs and wonders, then, build the kingdom of God on earth.
Tom: Right. Now, Larry, in a minute I want you to talk about a book that you’ve really critiqued big time, and that’s The Physics of Heaven. But before we go there, based on what you said last week, and then your reiterating now, I just did a three-part series – finished the last one, part three, which should, the Lord willing, be out, I think, in May – but here’s the deal: the three-part series had to do with Eastern mysticism and how Christians are getting into Eastern mysticism.
Tom: But here’s where I’m going with this. So, the basic problem is that as Christians buy into it, it changes their view of God. If they’ve had a biblical view from the beginning, and let’s say many have, but now, when you buy into the idea that God is a Force, He’s an energy, and so on. Now, I tell you where I’m going with this: I see the same problem with what you’ve been describing. This idea, as you’ve mentioned, it’s a philosophy. But as Christians - really, false teachers - begin to apply this to what they’re doing, they’re changing their view of God, aren’t they?
Larry: Yes. It has already been done, essentially, by those people who are involved in “process theology,” the more erudite, scholarly part of this, where evolution is looked upon as truth and God is a part of the process of evolution. So as the world is evolving, so is God. In other words, God isn’t the same today, yesterday, and forever. He is constantly changing! That’s one aspect of it.
Then we have “open theism,” which is another way that people are looking at God, and that is that God cannot predict the future, because He really doesn’t know what’s going to happen. That God is open to change; He’s so much involved in the process that He can’t really make changes. And so, you’ve got this accommodation of God to the process.
Now, the same thing is happening with the New Apostolic Reformation, because what they’re doing is they’re reducing God to pure power. This is also anti-Trinitarian, Tom, because what happens is if you’re so intent upon looking for the Second Pentecost, then you deny the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. He becomes really unnecessary in establishing the Kingdom, because the Manifest Sons of God – these little “gods” that are running around and playing gods with all these supernatural powers that they’ve harnessed – where these powers come from, I know that they’re going to come from Satan. This is going to be part of the grand deception at the end of the age. And when these powers…when these people get these powers, the world is going to stand in awe and wonder of them. This is all part of the last times deception that Paul spoke about 2 Thessalonians 2, and I believe also in Revelation 13, where the false prophet will work many, many signs and wonders, and the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, will work great signs and wonders. So we can expect this to escalate as the age progresses because it’s all preparatory for the end of times.
Tom: And what’s amazing about it – I mean, it’s a fulfillment of Scripture…
Tom: …but you have diverse ideas – seemingly diverse – but they’re all converging, and the bottom line is they’re changing the biblical view of God for those who (I’m not talking about just apostates, per se), but those who have been deceived; those who have been seduced by this, and it’s altering the view of the God of creation, without a doubt.
Larry: And the God of the new creation.
Larry: For example, I would assume your listeners know of 2 Peter:3:11-13, which is a great passage of Scripture, which talks about the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. We know that that’s coming, because this old heavens and this old earth is waxing old, and growing old. And so, in…this is fascinating, Tom, especially from the standpoint of the way some scientists are looking at reality right now, because they see it to be hopeless. And I think that may be where the New Apostolic Reformation plays into this also. They want to introduce hope into what we would understand to be a fatalistic worldview. What is that worldview? Well, Stephen Hawking predicts now the coming of a quantum doomsday. You know, when the Higgs Boson field, or the gravity, or glue, which holds the universe together and forms mass, will collapse, and everything will disintegrate at the speed of light. That is, now you see the universe, and now you don’t.
In fact, another scientist, or physicist, from Melbourne, Australia, explains that currently the Higgs Boson field – the micro-particles, the microscopic particles - is very stable, but at any moment, there could be instability that would set in. And they call this metastable, where the whole system’s upset. And they liken it to a big rock rolling down from the mountains and gets caught in a wedge, there on the mountain, and then it’s awaiting some sort of a shock, or something, to loosen it and get rolling again. And they think that when this rock begins to roll down the mountain, that’s when the universe is going to enter into this state of cosmic distress, and that’s going to be the tipping point.
Now, here’s the interesting part. In 2 Peter, he writes that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. That’s God’s Word. That’s in Peter.
Now, listen to what this scientist tells us. When the universe reaches the point of metastable, he says that this universe will “change into a new universe called a phase transition. This would look like a fireball spreading out at the speed of light, converting the old universe into a new one.”
The problem, we know from Scripture, is that this isn’t going to happen without the Creator being involved. And so this whole system is really upsetting, if not denying, the Creator we know from Genesis:1:1.
Tom: Well, Larry, the one aspect of this is just amazing. All right, so these scientists are recognizing from the way the universe…issues with the universe, second law of thermodynamics, and these kinds of things. However, we know, eschatologically speaking, that there are going to be some events that take place before - you know, the verse that you mentioned here…
Tom: …and that would be, certainly, the seven years of tribulation. But then, the thousand-year reign of Christ! So, these guys…you know there’s going to be a change, because you mentioned it last week. What about this “new Pentecost” that’s coming? I mean, there’s something positive! Let’s get on that, Larry.
Larry: Well, the problem is, there was one Pentecost. And in Acts 2, it says, “And they were filled with the Spirit.” Filled. Now, we may look at one baptism, with many fillings, of the Spirit. That’s the way some of my Pentecostal friends in Australia look at it. But the point is they were filled with the Spirit.
Now, when they were filled with the Spirit, did they get all of the Spirit? How is it that we had all these things that were occurring at the time of the filling, you know, in fulfillment of the Joel prophecy of Joel 2? And then along comes the New Apostolic Reformation, which says basically that the filling never occurred, that we’re awaiting a greater Pentecost than that which occurred in Acts 2. I frankly don’t get it because I don’t see the Second Pentecost anywhere in Scripture. This is a figment of people’s imagination. It’s made up.
Tom: Right, now, as I mentioned earlier, you have critiqued a book called The Physics of Heaven, which I think lays out much from the… well, I’m not going to call it “Pentecostal,” but certainly the errors of the Signs and Wonders group, but wouldn’t you say that that’s the book that has it laid out…I won’t say “clearly” because it’s utterly confusing. But tell us about The Physics of Heaven.
Larry: Well, The Physics of Heaven is authored, basically – or, I should say edited – by two ladies, Judy Franklin and Ellen Davis. And contributors to this book, contributors of chapters of the book, include any number of individuals in addition to Judy Franklin and Ellen Davis: Bob Jones, who is, I believe, a Kansas City Prophet; Bill Johnson, the pastor of the Redding church; Jonathan Welton, Ray Hughes, Dan McCollum, and Cal Pierce, Larry Randolph, David Van Koevering, and Benny Johnson, and again Bill Johnson. So these authors have come together and have contributed their understanding of a Second Pentecost and the meaning of that for the world. And they take aspects of quantum physics, aspects of Scripture. They combine them in an unholy wedlock in order to make the point about this coming Second Pentecost. But this book has popularized, really, what these people are thinking. And there’s even a website called The Physics of Heaven, and I am doing a critique of it, and, yes, it appears nonsense, but I think I’m arriving at the system that they’re promoting, and this system I hope to present this fall at your conference so that people will understand the system which is dictating what they believe about the Second Pentecost.
Tom: All right. One of the aspects of that book, which I think we had in conversation was that they have “Hearing from God through Speaking Colors.” Now, Larry, that sounds like back to the ’60s, the ’70s and a psychedelic drug trip. Now, am I exaggerating by saying that?
Larry: No, no! Because what it is, one of the authors – I believe it was Larry Randolph – calls it “synesthesia.” Now, at face value, that’s a foreign word to most people. “What is that?” And I looked in a couple of my New Age books, and, lo and behold, I found a definition of synesthesia. It’s the idea that the basic senses become confused and confuted when people are having what we would call altered states of consciousness, which is not uncommon when people take LSD or other drugs. Now, synesthesia, the synesthetic experience, is that when people hear something, they also smell it. When they see something, they also taste it. In other words, there’s this conglomeration of experiences that all meet together at a point and a moment of time, and this is looked upon by these people as an act of God, where God is bringing them in touch with the reality of the quantum physical universe because they’re experiencing all this stuff. And it is – you’re right – it’s just like taking a drug trip. Because people – mystics – have experienced synesthesia, people who have taken hallucinogenic drugs have experienced synesthesia, so what these people are doing is they’re taking New Age stuff and they’re putting it with a Christian spin and wedding it to the sound of God, the sound of the Pentecost in Acts 2 – there was a sound like “a mighty rushing wind from heaven” – they’re taking the sound of God walking in the Garden in Genesis 3; “God said”: they’re taking the sound of creation in Genesis 1; they’re saying here that the key is the energy, and when this sound comes, we’re going to be introduced to vast amounts of energy that is going to change totally the world in which we live because of the exercise of energy in a positive way. Like stopping hurricanes. Like stopping tsunamis. Like stopping tornados. They advocate that this is what these new Manifest Sons of God will be able to do.
Then you have the introduction of the Kingdom of God. It sounds crazy. It sounds crazy!
Tom: Yeah, but the thing is, people are buying into it!
Larry: That’s exactly right.
Tom: For example, think about the so-called manifestations that are present today. Supposedly you have feathers coming from the ceiling. You have gold dust. You have all that. That’s piker stuff, compared to, I think, what the Scripture talks about as lying signs and wonders. So (we mentioned this before) they’re building a case that these…whether we fall back on quantum spirituality, or whatever it might be to support a position that they take, this stuff is happening increasingly, and at least we can say that’s true to Scripture – these lying signs and wonders will definitely increase, and it’ll be more impressive, for want of another word.
Larry: They take the Scriptures, and they extract verses willy-nilly, here and there and everywhere – but maybe the common word is “sound.” And so they take anywhere in Scripture that the word “sound” occurs and they assign a quantum physical value to it. Okay? Then they try to take the Scriptures and they wed this quantum physical idea to the Scriptures to try to make a case, a credible case, that this is really going to happen. The problem is that they’re abusing Scripture, and they’re giving and assigning meanings to Scripture that aren’t even there in the original text.
Tom: Right. And then they’re saying…but of course, the Eastern mysticism, the false teachings, the false religions, and so on. They’ve had elements of this. So there’s no problem with going to what they’ve discovered. Is this ludicrous or what?
Larry: And these authors within The Physics of Heaven would even ascribe to a certain type of mystical path. For example, they would teach something called contemplation or meditation. Now, we talked about meditation as being good in one sense: we’re to meditate upon the Word of the Lord. But there’s another sense in which it’s bad. But they begin with meditation, and they begin with contemplation. Then they go into the area of manifestation, where certain things begin to happen. They begin to travel to “heaven.” They begin to see “God.” They begin to see all these things, and they claim to leave their bodies and come back to their bodies -all of these kinds of things. Well, these are supernatural phenomena that take place, and I have no doubt as regards the origin of it.
Tom: The issue here is why aren’t we just going to Scripture? “To the law and the testimony,” as Isaiah wrote. “If they speak not according to this word, there’s no light in them.” But, Larry, we’ve got just a couple of minutes left. Now, because I run into this all the time. Somebody will say, “Well, yeah, Tom, that was interesting, but, you know, I’m just not into that. I’m not into that sort of thing.” Now, that’s a little self-serving, as far as I’m concerned, but what do you think?
Larry: Well, it is self-serving. And if I can be honest, it’s a little bit of intellectual laziness that’s involved here. Even spiritual laziness. Jesus preached a sermon – a prophetic sermon, as we are aware of in Matthew 24 and 25. He was asked two questions: What shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?”
Because the coming of the Messiah was going to signal the end of the age, and the end of the age was going to signaled by the coming of the Messiah. What is the first thing that Jesus said, right out of the block? He said, “Beware, lest any man deceive you.” So Jesus is looking at the whole inter-advent age – the age between His first and second comings - as being an age of deception! Not of revival but an age of deception. You have also in 1 Timothy:4:1, you have the word of Paul, where he talks about people being deceived, talks about the doctrines of demons. In 2 Thessalonians 2, it talks about the “man of sin” and God – God actually sending upon people strong delusion that they should believe the lie. I read the Old Testament, and I find out that the remnant in the Old Testament was always a discerning group of people. They never went along. The Old Testament faith was never a majoritarian faith. And Christianity is not a majoritarian faith today. Christians need to understand where the deception lies, so that first of all, they are not deceived, number one. And number two, that they perhaps they can help their friends who are being deceived.
Tom: You mentioned the Old Testament. I think of the verse about the sons of Issachar: “They were aware of the times and knew what Israel should do.” Coming back to the last thing, that somebody says, “Well, that’s interesting, but I’m not into that sort of thing,” but my exhortation may be a little tougher than that, is “Wait a minute! We’re talking about your brothers and sisters in Christ who have bought into this – at least to some degree. Can’t you inform them? Can’t you redirect them? Do you have a heart for others?” And that’s what it comes down to, doesn’t it?
Larry: Yes, and that’s true. But you take, for example, the cardinal doctrine of Scripture. One of the five fundamentals of the Christian faith. That is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ – that it will be personal and it will be physical. Now, suddenly, we’ve got hatched by these people the idea of a Second Pentecost. The Second Pentecost becomes a substitute for the Second Coming of Christ. We are to be looking for “that blessed hope,” and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Now, these people are suddenly looking for the Second Pentecost. Is that not a delusion!?
Tom: And it changes our view of God! To the degree that somebody buys into that, they’ve deviated, they’ve drifted away – not only from the truth but from the Word of God, certainly, but from our Lord Himself!
Larry: It’s the doctrine of Antichrist. Because “anti” means “in place of Christ.” What they’re doing is they’re placing the Second Coming of the Spirit of which the Bible has nothing to say about in place of the Second Coming of Christ.
Tom: Amen! Larry, I want to remind our listeners again that you’re going to be at our conference in August. And I can’t wait for you to be at our conference so we can get into more of this. So, again, Larry, thank you for your information, for just your heart in this and your concern. So, God bless you, brother.
Larry: And I’m looking forward to being at your conference, and I thank you for the opportunity of today to share the Word of God.
Tom: Amen. Amen.
Larry: God bless.
Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7, featuring T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon, 97708; call us at 800.937.6638; or visit our website at the bereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for being with us, and we hope you can tune in again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.