Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in. In today’s program, Tom begins a two-part series with guest Carl Kerby as they address the question: “Who Created Evolution?” Here’s TBC executive director, Tom McMahon.
Tom: Thanks, Gary. My guest for today’s program and next week, the Lord willing, is my very good friend Carl Kerby. Prior to his ministry of Reasons for Hope, Carl was a founding board member and an international speaker for Answers in Genesis. And Carl (no bias here, but nevertheless) - Carl is one of the best communicators that I know dealing with issues related to biblical creation, but his passion is to proclaim the authority and the accuracy of the Bible, and to engage the minds and hearts of believers and unbelievers in biblical truth, and especially the young people. So, Carl, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.
Carl: Tom, you guys are such a blessing. Thank you for letting me be here.
Tom: Now, Carl…well, I’ll tell our audience – Carl will be one of our speakers at our TBC conference in Bend this August, and, Carl, what I would like to do is use this opportunity to preview some of the things that you’re planning to speak about. But first, let’s start with what the Lord has been doing of late in the ministry of Reasons for Hope. Where have you seen things developing that are, well, that you’re excited about?
Carl: You know, I appreciate you letting me share some of that! We’ve got a new video series coming out. I made a decision a couple of years ago that when we do our new film, we’re not going to do our talking-head lecture thing anymore. I’m just going for that younger generation, and getting them to watch a talking-head lecture is kind of tough to do. Getting them to watch anything is tough to do. But I said, “You know what? I want to get them out. I want people to come out with us. If we’re going to talk about fossils, let’s go dig some fossils. Let’s see them first hand.”
So we went up to Glendive, Montana, and we filmed with the fossils out in the field, and there’s a great dinosaur museum there from a biblical perspective. We filmed in the dinosaur museum, and so we’ve got the first episode coming out by the end of March, Lord willing, and I’m super-excited about that. I’ve shown the promo to a number of folks and it’s different – but I’m different, you know [laughs]; I had to get comfortable being weird. God says we’re supposed to be a peculiar people anyway. There’s nothing wrong with being weird; just be weird for the right reasons. And that’s what we did with this! We were out in the field, we’re looking at the bones, we’re looking at the dinosaurs, we’re talking about them, we’re using the Word of God to give answers to them. So, we’ve got that coming out.
We’ve got some studies coming out with 3- to 5-minute videos, and then you’ve got a study so that you can talk about things. I mean, to me, I’ve always envisioned those to be like dinnertime devotions, you know, where a dad (or Lord willing, a dad) sits down with his children over a meal and shows a short video, then has a 10- to 15-minute conversation with their child, teaching them how to apply their faith in the real world. We’ve got 20 of those studies coming out.
So, we’ve got Media Correct coming out – I’ll talk to you about that. We’ve got Fast Max coming…man, we’ve got a bunch of things coming out! God is so good. We’re blessed!
Tom: Now, Carl, your heart for young people, and mine as well, because our kids are in their mid-thirties, late twenties, early thirties – right in that age group, and it’s a generation that certainly is more attracted to the visual than to reading. But…it’s not that they don’t and can’t – and that’s what we’re encouraging them. But here’s what I like about what you do – and we’re going to get into this. Do you remember that when we were together down in Southern England at Truth 4 Youth? We had about 180 young people – mostly young adults – and remember me saying to them, “We are so excited about our speakers. We’re so excited to have the opportunity to speak to you, and what we want – we want you guys and girls to think biblically. But you know what? We’d be thrilled if you’d just think!”
Tom: And, of course, they weren’t offended by that, because that’s the issue. Now, I’m going to jump right into something that you major in: trying to get young people to think. But one of the things that you say is, “Whenever we’re asked a question, we need to question the question.” Tell us what you mean by that.
Carl: Well, it’s interesting. We just spent a long time teaching a generation what to think but not how to think. And I’ve gotten very convicted over the last few years with the number of young folks who I’ve had the privilege of working with and being around is that if you don’t teach application with memorization, you’re not doing them a service. You’re actually doing them a disservice. Because we’ve got a generation that has been raised in the church, many of them, that can quote John:3:16 but they couldn’t tell you what in the world it means. And so, that whole thing that you and I especially do when we’re working with the younger generation is teaching them how to think and not just what to think is the key. And one of the big keys is that when people ask you questions, you’ve got to look beyond the question because so many times people are asking you questions and there’s worldviews involved with it, there are biases involved with the question. Even the way they word the question, like, “Ok, Tom, when did you stop getting drunk?” You can ask a question in such a way that you can’t give a right answer to it.
So when somebody asks a question, I’m always looking at where are they coming from? What’s their worldview? What are they trying to get at? So I question the question so I can get to the core, because let’s quit dealing with all the surface fake stuff. Let’s get to the core issue. And when you can start seeing beyond the veneer, and you can start seeing what the core issue is, then you can start having real conversations. Otherwise, you’re just always arguing about this rock, that rock, this bone, that bone, and you’re never going to get anywhere. We’ve got to teach that generation how to cut through that stuff and get down to where the rubber meets the road and deal with the real issue. So you’d better question the question, and question how they’re coming at you with it, and what the implications of those questions are. Because – let me give you a simple one: well, the days in Genesis (because I get this one a lot – I just got it): “Who cares about the days in Genesis? They could have been long periods of time; they could have been this, they could have been that…”
And my response is, “You’re right. God could have created it in 6 days. He could have created it in 6 seconds. He could have created it in 6 million years. He could have done anything He wanted to do. He’s God! But there’s one thing that He had to do. He had to do it the way that He said He did it. Because if He didn’t do it the way that He said He did it, then He lied. And our God can’t lie.”
So if someone asks me a question like that – “Oh, it doesn’t matter, and who do you think you are tell me about this?” Well, I’m going to tell you it’s not [how] I think. It’s what He said. And we have to, as a Christian, allow that to be our standard and our authority, or we’re in trouble.”
Tom: Right. You know, there’s another side to that because you, in what you do, and certainly in what I do, you get the questions from the skeptics, you know, the people who are trying to…they’re just against what you do, and they’re going to throw some things at you, as you just articulated.
On the other hand, there are people who really want to know. So the thing I love about this, Carl, is that this puts us in the heart of those who are really seeking some answers and by asking them where they’re coming from and what the question’s about and so on, we get a sense of their heart and we can really go beyond just the facts or just beyond the slam-dunk arguments and so on, to find out are they really seeking God? Or maybe to move them in that direction. So, I love it! It puts us – not for everybody, because there are some that just want to knock you out of the ballpark, but for those who really have a heart that are seeking, it’s the way to go. It’s an important way to go.
Carl: I’ll give you an example, Tom. I was speaking up at Sugar Creek, Ohio, and I had a young man that started bringing questions during the talk. And I said, “Hang on! Let me finish the talk. People have come to hear this, so let me be respectful and I’ll talk with you afterwards.”
I came up to him afterwards. His name was Dennis, and he had written out on a sheet of paper, he’d written a bunch of questions. So he started asking his first question. I started to answer it, and he cuts me off and goes to another question. I start to answer it, he cuts me off and goes to another question. So I just said, “Hey, that’s it.” I said, “Dennis, are you playing shotgun with me?”
He said, “What?
I said, “Man, you’re like buckshot. You’re going all over the place. Are you trying to find something that I can’t answer so you can feel good about yourself? Let me save you a lot of time, ok? I’m not God. I can’t answer all your questions. Are we good? Can I go home now? I’m tired. It’s been a long day.”
And the guy just looked at me, shocked. He was like, “Well, I’ve got questions that Christians won’t answer.”
I said, “So why don’t you get to those, because, man, you’re playing games with me right now, and I’m not into games. If you’re genuine – if you’re legit – I’ll give you all night. But if you want to play games, do it on somebody else’s dime.” The dude wadded up the paper, and then we talked for an hour and a half. At the end of that discussion, the guy looks at me, and he goes, “You know, Carl, I’m actually backslidden, and [da da da…]”
And I said, “Dennis, I’ve just got to love you enough to tell you, if you’re living the life that you’ve been explaining to me for the last hour and a half, the Holy Spirit doesn’t indwell you, and you’ve got to get on your face before Him, man. And you’ve got to do some serious soul-searching and turn it over to the Lord.”
I got an email from that guy about three months later, and he said, “You know it has been so long since anybody just looked me in the eye and got real with me.”
But if you don’t look beyond the veneer, you can miss what’s really going on, and you’re right. You’ve got to…there are going to be those who just want to play games, and if they want to play games, I’m – I'm out. I mean, I’m going to kick them out as soon as possible. But if they’re legit, I will give them all night long.
Tom: Yeah, you see, again, that’s an example of having a heart for people. But at some point – I’m thinking about…because you just stimulated my thinking in this area, at some conferences where I speak, it’s not just that somebody comes up with an agenda, but they’re on a plane of experientialism and emotionalism and how they feel about something. Carl, we can’t go anywhere with that, right? So either you have to, “Okay, that’s the way you feel, I can’t do anything about your feelings except to say ‘Have a nice day!’” and just walk away, because somebody with feelings – great! We all have feelings, but what do feelings have to do with truth? What do they have to do with the Word of God and so on? So, it’s just another example of recognizing and being discerning [about] who you’re talking to – number one, we want to be used of the Lord; number two, we have people – if they’re really seeking Him, or if they’re open to correction, just like this Dennis that you mentioned was, and he was willing to go into an area that he didn’t think so at the beginning. So…
Tom: And praise the Lord that He gives us those opportunities, but we’ve got to be prudent.
Carl: I’ll tell you another one, Tom. I was just in Rochester last …two weeks ago, now… and this young man came up to me and he was hot, man! He was hot! And he’s coming at me, and I go back with him – and it was like boom-boom-boom-boom – we’re just going back and forth, not arguing, not fighting, but direct. You ask me a direct question, I’ll give you a direct answer. It was so funny. Twenty minutes into it, he asked me this question and I answered it, and he was like…you could just see it! The switch clicked, man! And his whole demeanor changed, and he started listening. After about 30 minutes of this conversation, he said to me, “You know, I’m really happy that I came up and talked to you. I’m really happy because this changes everything for me.”
I said, “So I made you mad.”
He said, “Yeah, you made me mad!”
I said, “So I made you mad enough that you’re going to go study to prove me wrong?”
He said, “Yep!”
I said, “Good, because I think the more you study, the Holy Spirit’s going to open your eyes that what I’ve been telling you is true. I have no doubt on that. So I’m looking forward to seeing you in heaven!” You’ve just got to love these guys enough to be straight with them, and let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit’s going to do.
Tom: Exactly. Absolutely. Carl, you know, one of the things – I know a number of things you’re going to be addressing at our conference, but here’s one that I want you to address. Evolutionists like to accuse creationists of promoting fables, right? That may be true regarding some – as I mentioned, there are people who have their own agenda. There are people who want to add to the Scriptures, who want to…think they’re helping out the Bible by adding their own ideas. However, when you stick to what the Bible says, there are no fables – simply God’s truth.
On the other hand (and this is what I want you to talk about) evolution majors in fables. As you say, in the form of fiction, stories, and artwork. Tell us about that.
Carl: You know, it’s interesting. That’s one of the claims that this young man made to me, was about, “Aww, you just believe in fairy tales and fables.” I’ll tell you another story from Rochester: I was in the school, as well, so I spoke at a bunch of places. I was there for eight days and every morning someplace, and every night another place. So I’m in the school and Q&A time comes up in the presentation. First question, this young lady says, “How do you respond to the person who says, ‘Well, if your God created everything, who created your God?”
And I said, “Well, thank you very much for asking. Here’s how I answer that question.” And I showed them the video clip, and you’ve seen me do this with the Tostitos commercial with a talking bag of chips. And this talking bag of chips is talking about how it had to change its shape so that it could handle the new dips that were really heavy. And so, I asked the young lady, Okay, so here’s how I would answer that question to the person that asked it: “Do you believe that a bag of chips can talk?”
“Well, no, that’s ridiculous.”
“Do you believe that a chip can change its shape all by itself because it doesn’t like the way that it looks anymore?”
“No, that’s ridiculous.”
I said, “So, you think that’s ridiculous, but this isn’t?” And then I played a clip from an advertisement for a TV show on PBS, and it says, “Over the course of 14 billion years, hydrogen gas transformed itself into mountains and butterflies, the music of Bach, and you and I.” (And that’s a direct quote – I’ve done it so many times.) And I said, “So you think it’s ridiculous for me to believe in a bag of chips that can talk and change its shape, huh! I think it’s ridiculous that you believe that hydrogen gas could change itself into everything that we see today! You want to ask me the question of who created my God? I’m going to ask you: who created your gas? You think I have fairy tale?
You think I have a fable? God said He created, and if He created the way that He said that He did, when I look at the world around me, I should see evidence for it, and by the way, we’re standing in this amazing brick building here, and isn’t it just fantastic what an explosion in a brick factory could do? It built this building for you because you had an explosion in a brick factory! You know that’s ridiculous! Well, guess what. Look in the mirror. You think that you coming together in the amazing design that you see in your body – 27 bones in your hand, 25 muscles to make those 27 bones work? But you need those 8 muscles in your forearm to make those 25 muscles control those 27 bones. Or if you don’t have a billion neurons in your brain…guys, you think we have a fairy tale and a fable?”
When we go to the museums, we will look at the actual evidence – and that’s what we did in Rochester. I took over 80 – almost 90 people through the museum up there. We looked at the actual evidence, and when you look at the actual evidence, you don’t see evidence for evolution. The only places you see evidence for evolution are in the reconstructions that they put together – the cool artwork or cool little videos that accompany each one of these bones or rocks that they’ve got there.
Teaching that generation how to critically evaluate and see the difference between evidence and interpretation – that’s a key.
Tom: Carl, I have a degree in fine arts, and so…I love art. Obviously, it’s a very subjective endeavor, but nevertheless, this is the main promoter. This is the main fraud with regard to advancing the ideas of evolution. Would you say that’s the case?
Carl: Oh, yeah! I mean, I think the last time I was with you guys I got to do the talk on Lucy and Ida, and Ida’s still used at the Denver Museum of Natural History. And you walk in there, and she’s one of the main stars for supporting the “fact” that humans evolved from apelike creatures. Ida was a lemur! Total lemur. When you look at the actual bones, it was a lemur. And that’s when I showed you guys the clips from the program, and it’s a lemur.
Lucy was ape. Even the evolutionists now today say that she was not in the human lineage. It was an ape. And so, when you go to the museum though, what you see is a reconstruction of Lucy standing upright with human hands and human feet, and the actual evidence doesn’t support that. They bring no hand bone, no foot bones for Lucy. They found some from a relative, but the curvature of their hand and toe bones were more curved than the chimp, but they put human hands and human feet on the reconstruction in the museum. They put whites around the eyeballs of Lucy when apes don’t have whites around their eyeballs.
It’s tiny little things like that that are very deceptive. And so, again, teaching that generation how to look at what the actual evidence shows and not what you’re going to see in the reconstructions – that’s when good things happen because when you teach them to “Question the question,” you can see an excitement when the fact that they start realizing that the actual evidence supports the Word of God.
Tom: Right. So, it’s in the bones; it’s not in the pictures, it’s not in the paintings, it’s… again, that’s where the fables come in. They’re promoting an idea through subjective artwork that’s not a picture…well, it is a picture, but it’s not a documented fact. The fact’s in the bones.
Carl: And think about it, Tom. Like with Lucy’s skull, they have seven fragments – seven fragments of the skull. If all you have are seven fragments, what do you fill in around the fragments with? What you think, what you believe it looked like. And that’s why I show eight or nine different reconstructions of a skull. And this is where I kind of set people up to fail, I’m being honest. I show seven different skulls, and I say, “Look, according to the theory of evolution, the closer you get to the apelike ancestor, you should see this thing that is becoming less and less human and more and more apelike, and then the thing that’s very apelike should get gradually reducing down, because that common ancestor had the features of both humans and apes, and then they slowly, gradually turned into the human, and slowly gradually turned into the ape. So which of these is the least apelike? Which of these is the least humanlike?”
And people start voting on it, and then I tell them, “You’re all wrong. These are all reconstructions of Lucy’s skull. Seven different scientists took those seven bone fragments and reconstructed them, and not one of them agree with each other. If all you have are fragments, you’re going to fill in those fragments with what you think – your worldview, your bias – and you’d better question that!”
Tom: Right. Now, Carl, we’ve been talking about fossils. And we could cover this in the whole two programs, but how important is the fossil record in showing the utter fallacy of evolution?
Carl: That’s really the big thing we’re going to talk about. I’m going to use their phylogenetic charts, their family trees, their fossils – and show that if God did what He said that He did the way that He said that He did it, when I look at the actual evidence in the world, it should show that one thing stayed one thing, never changed from one into anything else. You should see speciation, of course, because we start with two dogs and we get all kinds of different looking dogs; two people, we get all kinds of different looking people. There should be speciation. That should be shown in the fossil record. But you should not see something that is transitioning from a worm to a fish, a fish to an amphibian, an amphibian to a wolf, a wolf going back into the ocean to become a whale. You shouldn’t see that stuff.
Well, let’s take a look at the plates. Let’s take a look at the actual charts that supposedly depict how these things happened, and when you look at them, and you critically evaluate what the actual evidence is and pick it apart from what the story of that evidence is, you may be surprised. You may be encouraged to know that God’s Word is not in trouble. And if you can show someone – and you know me, Tom; arguments don’t bring anybody into the kingdom – we don’t argue to argue; we don’t argue to win an argument. That’s worthless. We give an answer for the reason for the hope that lies within us with meekness and fear because we are being obedient to what God commanded us to do. I don’t win anybody to the kingdom. The Holy Spirit does that. He’s going to draw who He’s going to draw. I have the privilege of hopefully breaking down some stumbling blocks that are keeping people from listening to the truth of the gospel. I give answers because I’m trying to be obedient to what God called me to do.
But by showing that, what you see in the world does not support hydrogen gas over the course of 14 billion years transforming itself, but it is actually consistent with what the Word of God says. Maybe I’ve broken down a stumbling block that would keep them from listening to the rest of the Word of God, where He says that He loved us so much that He died on a Cross while we were rejecting Him. That’s what it’s got to come back to, is the preaching of the gospel.
Tom: Right. And you make a good point. I’m not sure if it was Tozer, or whoever it was, that said that what we’re trying to do is just cut down the trees that people are hiding behind.
Tom: And these trees are false ideas, false things, that for whatever reason, if we can take them out of the way, they’re going to recognize, just as Adam and Eve in the Garden after the fall tried to cover themselves with leaves. So we just want to show them their nakedness before God and He’s their only hope.
Now, Carl, we only have a couple of minutes left in this session, but you’ve been addressing Bill Nye. Now, he’s the guy who debated, in recent times, Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis. Just to set up for next week’s program – we’re going to cover a lot of other subjects that you’ll be addressing at our conference – but tell us about Nye and, just quickly, the declarations he’s making in support of evolution.
Carl: You know, it’s kind of a shame. When I was younger, I mean, his show, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, was fun, and he was lighthearted. But he’s turned into a crotchety old dude, quite frankly. And if you don’t believe in evolution, he’s gotten just downright nasty. He did a talk called “Big Think.” And that was kind of the thing that propelled him back into the spotlight, and that’s because he just took direct shots at, especially creationists, but Christianity as a whole. So when I saw that, “Big Think,” I said, You know what? I’ve been doing this series of talks that I say, well, Answering Skeptics, and I think that last time when I was with you I did the Richard Dawkins one. So I took his, because he makes very bold claims that Christians, creationists, you’re just wrong. There’s no evidence for it. Your worldview’s not going to be here in a couple of hundred years, and we need your children, because we need literate voters and we need literate scientists and engineers, people that can build stuff, and the implication is that if you don't believe in evolution, then wow! You must not be able to be an engineer, you must not be able to build stuff or solve problems!
So I’m, like, well, let’s take his arguments and break them down and critique them. And I let him define evolution. I use his videos, let him define it, and then we just go through and critique it, because the claims that he’s making don’t stand up.
Tom: It’s worse than that, Carl. It’s the theater of the absurd, but the grieving aspect of this is – people buy it. They buy into it because they’re not doing what you said at the beginning of the program. You hear a question or you hear a statement, let’s question it, and then let’s get into it, and so on.
It’s so important because the media – it can be so pervasive. Well, it is pervasive, but it can be so persuasive. And that’s a problem.
My guest has been Carl Kerby of Reasons for Hope, and Carl’s going to be one of our speakers at our conference in August, and we have covered some things that he’s going to be talking about, but in our next session we’re going to be dealing with more of the issues.
So, Carl, thanks for being with us, and we look forward to our next program.
Carl: I am so blessed to be with you. Thanks, Tom.
Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 featuring T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708; call us at 800.937.6638; or visit our website at the bereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for joining us, and we hope you can tune in again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.