Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could tune in. In today’s program, Tom concludes a two-part series with guest Carl Kerby as they address the question: Who Created Evolution? Here’s TBC Executive Director, Tom McMahon.
Tom: Thanks, Gary. My guest for today’s program – this is actually part 2 – is Carl Kerby, a really good buddy of mine, and Carl’s ministry is Reasons for Hope. He’s been a founding board member of Answers in Genesis, he’s an international speaker; he is, in my biased opinion, one of the best communicators that I know in dealing with things related to biblical creation, but his passion – and this is the important part – is for evangelism. His passion is for proclaiming the authority and accuracy of the Bible and to engage the minds and hearts of believers and unbelievers in biblical truth, and especially young people, which is near and dear to my heart. So, Carl, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.
Carl: Thank you, Tom, for letting me come back.
Tom: Carl, as we ended last week’s program, we were talking about this man named Bill Nye. Now, people may know of him in the church if they’ve been following some of the creationist/evolutionist debates. And he recently debated Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis, but I know you have addressed Bill Nye – but, again, just to remind our audience, tell us a little bit about Bill and what’s his deal?
Carl: You know, it’s an interesting thing. I don’t know what’s happened, but, oh, probably about three years ago now is when he really got very aggressive toward folks who do not believe in evolution. He just started making very bold and provocative statements about Christians and especially about creationists. He came out with what was called Big Think. It was a video that he did on “Big Think,” and it’s a five-minute video where he just really went after creationists. And so that brought him back into the spotlight and then the debate came up with Ken, and, boy, that really blew up as well. A lot of folks watched that. So, I’ve actually just at the airport the other day, I saw a guy who was wearing a T-shirt for his presidential candidates, and he wanted Neal deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye. That was the party that he was voting for. So he’s come back into the spotlight in a pretty major way, just because of his stance against creationists, especially.
Tom: Yeah, now, your first awareness of him goes way back. Wasn’t he the “science guy” for the Disney Channel?
Carl: Yeah! And it was a fun show. I remember watching it, and it was fun, and you know, it’s kind of weird as you get older you start seeing things with critical eyes. I didn’t realize, but he was definitely promoting and teaching evolution wholeheartedly back then, but it was just, you know, one of those things as a younger person, I didn’t catch those things. So I went back and started watching some of the old episodes, and, boy, there’s no doubt about it. He was absolutely promoting evolution back then. But he wasn’t as mean-spirited as he is now. So, again, I’m not sure what happened, but he’s gotten a little bit angry in his old age.
Tom: Well, you know, I would think you’re going to get angry if you see that what you’ve been teaching and promoting is losing ground. And it’s not losing ground because the creationists are becoming more popular. It’s just that the evidence is…it runs against you. Which brings me to a point…
Carl: You know, that’s interesting. I did a talk once, and I had this lady – she brought her brother up and kind of dropped him off in my lap after the talk. He was an evolutionist, and he taught at University in England, and he taught global warming. And so we had this talk. We were going back and forth for twenty minutes – you know, back and forth. And after twenty minutes, the guy looks at me, and he just goes, “You’re not what I expected.”
And I go, “Okay, you can take that a couple of ways. How do you mean it?”
He said, “I just expected you to get really angry and want to fight with me, because I don’t believe the same way that you do.”
And I said, “Sir, I’m not going to argue and fight with you because you don’t think the way that I do. I spent a long time like that. As a matter of fact, I always find it funny that a guy like Richard Dawkins, he gets visibly angry when he talks with Christians and creationists. He just gets angry. And he thinks we’re idiots. He’s just so mean-spirited.” I said, “I want you to think about this, Sir. If you came up to me, and you were dead serious, ‘I believe the moon in made out of green cheese.’ If you said that to me, would I get angry? Would I fight with you? Would I argue with you? No way, brother. I’d pat you on the back and say, ‘Man, you might want to go get some help.’ I’m not going to get mad at you, I’m going to pity you. If we’re such idiots, he should feel sorry for us. The fact that he gets mad tells me that it’s a spiritual issue, and there’s still hope for him, so I’m still praying for Richard Dawkins.”
We parted ways. Man, I got an email from that guy a number of months later, and I’d met him on a Thursday, and he said, “I just want you to know, Carl, I received the Lord the Sunday after speaking with you. And you didn’t know this, but when you were talking to me, and you made that statement about Richard Dawkins, I had written on my Facebook page at that time, ‘Richard Dawkins is God.’”
To see a guy go from “Richard Dawkins is God” to “Jesus is Lord,” that’s what it’s all about. And so, you know, even these mean-spirited guys, man, the Holy Spirit’s working on them, and I think you’re right. That’s why they get all upset. So we love them, we pray for them, and we just speak the truth and let the Holy Spirit do what He’s going to do.
Tom: Now, I think our audience knows, at least from last week, but Carl is going to be one of our speakers at the TBC Conference in August, and what I want to do here, we did it in the first part but also in the second session, cover some things that you’re going to be talking about at the conference. It’s kind of a preview of some things, and I hope that people will come out to the conference and if not, they can live stream it, and we’ll have more information about the conference as we draw near to it.
Now, Carl, one of the… this is my perspective, but one of the things that drive these guys to get angry, as I said, has to with… they’re losing ground evidence-wise. Now, here’s one. There has been a discovery of late, which I know you’re fully aware of, that has shaken the science community, and it has to do with what turned out to be an accidental finding. Now, here’s the way it’s stated in the Smithsonian Magazine (hardly – is that a Christian-oriented…?)
Carl: Oh boy…
Tom: No way, José. But here’s the way it’s stated in their Smithsonian Magazine. Here’s the headline: “Dinosaur Shocker: Probing a 68-million-year-old T. rex, Mary Schweitzer stumbled upon astonishing signs of life that may radically change our view of the ancient beasts.”
Now, Carl, what problem – or problems- does that present for evolutionists?
Carl: A bunch. [Laughter] A bunch. This goes back a number of years, but it’s been funny to watch it, because initially, Mary Schweitzer made her findings - she had taken some bones from a T. rex femur and put it into some chemicals to dissolve off some of the calcification and she left it in too long, and when she came back, she found dinosaur flesh. I mean, it was like, okay, what is this? This can’t be what it is!
And when you read, or go watch – I mean, watch the 60 Minutes episode that she did where she was revealing the findings - she’s like, “I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t believe it. This is not possible. How can you find flesh that’s 68 million years old? It should be long-gone. So I had my assistant do it again, and again, and again, and again. Every time we do this process, they’re not just finding flesh. They’re finding blood vessels, they’re finding red blood cells.”
Now when it first came out, the argument was, “Oh, these aren’t blood vessels. This is bio-slime.” Or “the red blood cells were preserved because of iron.” I mean, they came up with all kinds of explanations to try to work around this. The problem is as the years have gone by, they keep trying to disprove it, and they’ve finally gotten to the point where it’s like, “You know what? This is flesh. These are blood vessels. And these are red blood cells.”
So now we have two options. Mary Schweitzer, who is a professing Christian, does not like it that some folks like myself use her work to support what I believe the Bible teaches: that there was no death before Adam sinned, God created man and the land animals on the same day, dinosaurs and land animals: on day six is when He said He created the land-dwelling, air-breathing animals, and I believe that’s what happened. And so we don’t have millions of years of death and suffering before Adam ever came onto the scene. And here’s evidence that the dinosaurs didn’t live millions of years ago. I think it’s a very straightforward case.
She doesn’t like it when I do that. So what I did is I went and found one of her interviews, and so now I just quote her directly instead of me giving the implications. I say, “Look, this is the lady who discovered it. She’s fought the battles, and she’s taken a lot of shots over this stuff from her peers. And this is what she says: ‘You have two options. Number one, there’s some unknown process that allows these things to last 68 million years.’” (Oh, by the way, it’s even worse now because they’re finding things in 80-million-year-old dinosaur bones and older). “‘Or, number two, maybe dinosaurs aren’t as old as we think they are.’”
Well, there you go. You’ve got two options. Which one do you think makes the most sense? You’ve got flesh that can last 80 million years? Or, maybe they’re not as old as we think they are. I, personally, am going to go with the latter!
Tom: Now, you’re going to show us some of those clips from 60 Minutes, aren’t you?
Carl: Oh, yeah.
Tom: Okay! And, you know, I viewed it. Wow! What can you say? Except “Here’s the evidence, folks!” Incredible. Incredible.
Now, what do you make – you mentioned Richard Dawkins and your communication with him. What’s your take on him throwing a bone (that’s a pun, intended)…
Carl: Oh, boy…
Tom: …throwing a bone to Christianity as being much preferred over the violence generated by Islam? What’s he doing?
Carl: You know, it’s interesting. He and a guy named Lawrence Krauss were on tour doing talks and…this is… I might have to sneak some of this stuff in when I’m with you guys, because I’ve been…I’m doing this whole new talk on “Something from Nothing.” And Lawrence Krauss wrote a book, A Universe from Nothing. And so, he’s on tour with Richard Dawkins and asking him questions, and it’s very interesting that when you listen to that…and then another one I saw him talk with Penn Jillette – Penn Jillette did an interview with him, and Penn Jillette asked him point blank about Christians and how Christians have treated him, and he was like, “You know what? They’ve treated me very well. But it doesn’t matter how nice they are to me, because they’re still wrong!” You know?
Carl: So, I think at some point, something’s got to open up in your mind when you see a group of people who disagree with you but still treat you with respect: “Hey, I disagree with you, but you’re created in the image of God. God died for you, regardless of whether I like you or not, God loved you enough to die for you, so I’m going to respect you,” versus “I disagree with you, so I’m going to cut your head off.” I don’t know. Those two options right there? They’ve got to speak to you at some level, man! You’ve got to start realizing, No, all religions are not the same! I mean, you’ve got one that says, “Love your neighbor,” and you’ve got the other that says, “Behead your neighbor.” They’re different! And that’s got to speak at some point! The lost even have to see the difference between those two.
Tom: Yeah. You see, the thing I love about that is – and I’m learning this more and more, especially since the Lord has provided opportunities for me to be in Mongolia, and be in South Africa, and to be in Albania and Macedonia, and so on. But I get to see, because I’m interacting with people in the mission field, how God is working through them! God will…I mean, look, if He sent His Son to die for us, what’s going to hold Him back from trying to get to our hearts and minds with the truth, which is the only possibility for eternal salvation? So, you know… I mean, we could say He’s going to move heaven and earth, and, you know, that may be…
Carl: Tom, you know, one thing, to follow up what you just said there, because to me, I want to say thank you to the people who support The Berean Call and people who support our ministry, because we get to see some amazing things. We get to see…and I’m not talking about doing meetings with big numbers. That’s not it.
Tom: Never been our deal…
Carl: We’re talking about the fact that you and I have the privilege of seeing the remnant – and we’ve talked about this a lot, you know, the times that we got to go to England, and you’re talking to 15-20-25 people, but they’ve driven three hours, four hours… Last time I was in England, we had a family drove twelve hours, Tom. Twelve hours after getting off of a plane – directly off of a plane - from a flight from Australia! Because their kids said, “We’ve got to be there! I want to be there!” They drove twelve hours! We are blessed. So thank you to the folks who allow us to do what we do. Because they’re a part of it as much as we are. You know that, and I know that. And for us to be able to talk to people and to pour into folks’ lives, to kind of stir up a fire in the belly of a generation, man – what a privilege we have to do that!
Tom: Yeah, you know, Carl, when I was in South Africa, we have an outpost of The Berean Call there!
Tom: I’m under conviction, because they print our newsletter, they get our materials and they distribute…you know, disseminate it throughout South Africa, and northern parts of Africa, and so on. And I just kind of thought, Well, okay, that’s nice. Wait a minute! Carl, I met Bereans who make me [think], Hey, Tom, where are you in this? In other words, their commitment for the love of God, for the Word of God, for encouraging people, just as you’re doing, to check things out, you know. Just don’t let it pass by. Anyway. Totally impressed. And, Carl, you know, and I know, we’re buddies, how God has privileged us to be a part of this. It’s just…all we can say is, “Thank you, Jesus! Thank you, Jesus!”
Now, on the other hand, here’s a question, Carl. Do you think that Christians generally in their churches as well as their educational institutions – are they on the same page regarding creation vs. evolution? Or should I ask, what page are they on, Carl?
Carl: Oh, man. That is so hard, because it’s frustrating, to be real frank with you. For the most part, I see many people that claim the name of Jesus that approach His Holy Word with a “God, I know what You wrote, but let me tell You what You meant” mentality. You know, “I know You said You created in six days, but You didn’t understand science, so it can’t really be that. I know You said You created one man and one woman, but you didn’t quite understand science. Science has proven the earth is millions of years old, and apelike ancestors evolved into us, and so You had this pre-Adamic race of humans running around, eating each other, killing each other, but then God wiped them out and created Adam and Eve a few thousand years ago…” And none of that is in the Scriptures, so I have Christians that are telling me this. I see the Christian Institutions that are teaching this. I get emails, Facebook messages, on a regular basis from a generation that this is what they’re hearing from the church, from Christian leaders, from Sunday school teachers, and so, it’s frustrating.
Now, I do see the remnant out there, though. That’s the privilege of doing what I get to do, because I get to go out, and I told you about Rochester, not too long ago. We’re up there, and Juan Valdez, my other speaker (don’t laugh; that’s his real name!), was up there with me, and he went to one place and I went to another, and he went into a public school, and he had five of the teachers that came to this special after-hours devotion that he did for these teachers. And one of them was a science teacher, and this guy was rock solid – he’d been there for 20-plus years, and he was so encouraged that we would come in and encourage him to keep on keepin’ on.
So, I see both ends of the spectrum, but the majority, in my humble opinion, are the ones that are sitting in the middle that just don’t have a clue why it is even an important issue. Those are the ones that I’m trying to get out and step all over their toes and let them know that, look, if you want to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and if you’re going to really believe in John:3:16, you’d better be able to sell up for Genesis:1:1. If you can’t sell up for Genesis:1:1, you will never love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and that’s where Satan has been smart. Doubt is the tool he’s used from the beginning; he’s still using it, and you’d better wise up to his attack.
Tom: Yeah, you’re right, Carl. Not to throw a psychological term out there, but if they’re not buying Genesis but they think they’re with the Lord in the New Testament, they’re schizophrenic, at least! And there can never be a peace – the peace that passes understanding. Now, we’re not talking about being in a coma here, folks. We’re talking about a genuine peace that comes from knowing God, from loving Him, and from recognizing that His Word is just that – it’s God’s Word. And with that comes – maybe not initially, because some may just be getting into this – but basically, it’s the peace that passes understanding because you’re confidence is continually growing in the Lord and in His Word and what it says. That’s what…
Carl: Can I just give you a little story on that, Tom? When I got saved, my wife had already been saved for two years. A year later, I get exposed for the first time to somebody that showed me that the Word of God was true and trustworthy. My wife and I both believed when we were both saved that God used evolution, the earth was millions of years old – we just believed all that. That’s all we knew. My Sunday school teacher taught it to me. My Sunday school teacher taught me, and I wrote it in my Bible – it’s still there: “You take evolution, you put it in the Bible, God used it, God directed it.” That’s what we knew.
Well, when I got confronted with the fact that here’s what the Scripture says, and here’s what the world says, and those two worldviews don’t fit, I - my faith exploded! Because it was the first time I could trust the Bible in its entirety! I wasn’t just a “New Testament Christian.” The whole book was true, and that made my faith explode, but it also made my wife upset. Because now, she’s like, “So you’re telling me I’m not a Christian because I don’t think the same way that you do?” For a year, we had these conversations, and I say “conversation” lightly. “You’re telling me I’m not a Christian! You’re telling me…”
“No, I’m not!”
And we had these conversations until my wife had my son. My son was very young at the time. He told a lie; he got caught in it. And when my wife confronted him, my son just broke down. He’s got a soft…you know my son. He’s got a sweet spirit, soft spirit. And he just looked at mommy, broke down crying, said, “It’s not my fault. It’s Adam’s fault!” And it hit my wife: “If my son can believe the Bible and believe that Adam was a real man that had real sin that had real consequences, what’s wrong with me?”
And she came to me that night when I got home from work, and she said, “Carl, this makes the Bible so easy!”
I said, “Bingo! That’s it! When it’s God’s Word, He said it, He did it the way that He said He did it – man, it makes it simple!” And so, to me it’s just if you could get the Body of Christ to truly believe it, it would change us radically.
Tom: Well, that’s the point. It is simple that even a child can understand it, but it is so profound! I mean, the depths of knowing the character of God, His love…I mean, you know, come on! For eternity – where we’re not going to ever be able to plumb the depths of that, but we’re going to enjoy it! It’s incredible!
So, Carl, we’re going to end with this. We’ve got probably about five minutes. You state, and everybody should be aware, that we are constantly being bombarded by what the world thinks and what the world believes. And things that we don’t even recognize that we’re being influenced by. So, what’s the antidote? What’s the prevention program as believers? How do we keep such things from entering into our thinking?
Carl: Well, the simple answer is “you know the Word.” Because if you don’t know the Word, then you’re not going to be able to pick out the lies, and Satan is the king of deceivers. He’s the father of lies. And the point that I’ve been making more and more to this younger generation that we’d better learn: Satan doesn’t play fair! He doesn’t have to! He bold-faced lies! That’s why when I show these fossils, and fossil record, and you show these reconstructions that don’t fit anything – not even close to what the actual evidence shows – they’re bold-faced lies! It doesn’t matter. There’s no consequences to lying when there is no “God” in your worldview, and you’re just doing what is right for you.
So we are being bombarded. I mean, I tell everybody that 900 hours a year is the average time a young person spends in the school system. That same young person spends 1,064 hours in front of a TV set! That’s more time in front of the TV than they do in school. Yeah, yeah! Then you throw in the video games – that’s 936 hours a year that the kids are playing video games. So we are being bombarded. We’re being bombarded by messages that come from the media, for the most part. When you start talking about cellphone usage, Internet time – the younger generation is spending an average of 11 hours a day on these smart devices on the Internet. Now that sounds impossible, but it’s actually 7 ½ hours on the device, but because they’re multitasking it’s 11 hours of media jammed into a 7 ½-hour day. And the messages that they’re receiving from Family Guy, Simpsons, Desperate Housewives, Law & Order, and all these programs [say] “Christians are closed-minded, intolerant, bigoted, opinionated hicks. Ask them a question, they don’t have answers; they’ve got their opinions, and they’re just a bunch of goofballs.”
Well, when we don’t do what God commanded us to do, which is to study to show ourselves approved, to have an answer why we believe what we say we believe from the right source, we fall prey to that stereotype. And so the only thing that we can do to overcome that is to get into the Word, get down on our knees in prayer, allow the Holy Spirit to take over and do what the Holy Spirit’s going to do. But we’d also better be aware – I just think of Jesus has two questions: Who do you say I am? Who do they say that I am?
If I’m going to get out and start talking to “they” – the ones that are not inside the four walls of the church, I’d better know why I believe what I say that I believe. But then I’d also better be able to take that gospel, that truth, and connect it to a world that isn’t listening anymore. So that’s why I do the things that I do, and I’m not saying everybody has to do it, but I do it with the museums and the zoos and the media, the television and the movie clips. I use those things to connect with the generation – not to make the Bible “relevant.” It’s the Word of God. Who do I think I am to make it relevant? It’s the Word of God. It is relevant, whether I want to try to make it or not! I just try to use those things to connect with them to show them that if the Bible’s dealing with this over here, and it’s accurate, then guess what? It’s also accurate when it says you’re going to spend eternity somewhere. Are you ready for that?
Tom: Now, Carl, here’s my broken record. And maybe, if the audience is tired of hearing this, too bad! And I’ll tell you where I’m going. I ask people if they could spend five minutes a day reading the Word of God. You know, you could be at a stop light, especially in Southern California – you could wait at a stop light for five or six minutes, okay? So the point is, can you spend five minutes a day? Now, I’m not asking people to become apologists. But they are going to be apologists if they follow what I’m saying here: if you can spend five minutes a day, every day, in the Word of God. And you say, “Well, five minutes – you’re not going to get anything out of it.” Hey, folks, I’m not really talking about the five minutes in the Word of God. I’m talking about discipline! If you can do it every day – because, Carl, you know - you’re going to go from five minutes to eight minutes to ten minutes to fifteen minutes…that’s the way the Word of God works. So, then, through the process of being disciplined in the Word of God, you are going to be an apologist on the basis that you’re going to know it better than when you weren’t doing it.
Carl: That’s right.
Tom: And that’s where the answers are. That’s where the answers that we bring forth are. So again, our encouragement is: if you’re not into the Word of God, if you’re not reading the Word of God in discipline, you’re ripe. You’re up for grabs. You’re vulnerable, and all of this stuff. But better yet, you’re going to get to know Him better. You’re going to grow in your relationship with Him. You’re going to know when He wants…Jesus said, “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and you don’t do the things that I say?” Well, they don't because they don’t know what He’s saying! They’re listening…they’re being spoon fed, or something like that.
Okay, I’ll get off the soapbox here, but it’s important, folks! It’s really important.
My guest has been Carl Kerby. He’s going to be at our conference here in August, the Lord willing, and we’ve covered some things that he’s going to be covering, so I hope you get excited about it - either you’re going to be able to come to the conference, or you’ll be able to live stream it. In any case, Carl, thanks so much, bro, for being with me and for what you’ve been able to articulate and speak to our listeners about.
Carl: Tom, you and the folks at The Berean Call are such a blessing to me, and I appreciate you, I appreciate your whole team, and thanks to the folks who support you. They’re doing a great work, guys! Thank you!
Tom: God bless you!
Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708; call us at 800.937.6638; or visit our website at the bereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for being with us, and we hope you can be here again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.