Tom: Thanks, Gary. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. We’re going through Dave Hunt’s book, A Cup Of Trembling, subtitled: Jerusalem and Bible Prophecy. And if you have joined us for the first time—you are new to the program—this is a book that really lays out what’s going on in the Middle East, and better than that, it gives the perspective from the Bible—how the trouble in the Middle East began. And to really understand that, we have to go back to—we have to go to the Bible, and we have to look to the Scriptures with regard to prophecy, certainly the Bible as history, and if we understand that, I think we are going to get a better handle on what’s going on there today.
Dave, last week on the program, this segment, I mentioned that in 1967, the Israelis took control of Jerusalem, and the question I have here—well, there are a number of questions. Number 1, they also took the Temple Mount, and you would have thought that as important as the Temple Mount is to Israel, to the Israelis, Moshe Dayan, the general in charge at that time, turned it back over to King Hussein of Jordan.
Dave: He was trying to be magnanimous, as the Israelis often attempt to be magnanimous and generous and kind to the Arabs, to the Muslims, the so-called Palestinians, and it doesn’t work, because…we won’t go back over that again, but we have mentioned it a number of times: “Every Jew must be killed before the last day can come,” that is, the day of judgment, when the Muslim can enter into paradise, hopefully. That land belongs to the Arabs, not to the Jews, and unless they take it away from them—it’s an affront to Islam, it says Islam is a false religion, the Qur’an is not true, Muhammad is a false prophet. And Tom, you can trace the rise of fundamentalist Islam to this very problem. When they were defeated—they’ve have been defeated—1948: you had 650,000 Israelis settlers. They didn’t have weapons. Five Arab nations, backed by other Arab nations, come after them, their regular armies. Overwhelming power, tanks and planes, and the Israeli settlers defeated them. It’s ignominy, they say. “We’ve got to wipe out this shame,” and they keep trying: 1956, 1967, 1973, and so forth.
And then the Imams began to say, “Well, the reason you keep losing to these Israelis is because you are not being true to Muhammad. You are not practicing Islam as the Qur’an requires, as Muhammad set the example. You’ve got to get back to real Islam,” because the Qur’an, of course, Surah 8, would be one of the places—and other places—promises that a few Muslims will chase large numbers of Jews and will defeat them. The opposite has happened. So now we have the rise of fundamentalist Islam. “We’ve got to get back to what real Islam is.” This is what they are thinking. And “Then Allah will defeat the Jews for us.”
Tom: So—I don’t want to get way ahead of ourselves, but we are going to be moving in this direction anyway, so really, it’s futile at best to think that these people can be negotiated with and with any sense of honor or integrity, and so on.
Dave: Tom, lying is honorable in Islam to further Islam, and, I mean, I don’t understand it. We have this “road map to peace” now supposedly going on; we have the Oslo Accords, we have various agreements that they have signed. They don’t mean anything! They are not worth the ink, let alone the paper on which they have been written; they are not worth the ink in the signature—because they go against Islam. Islam says, “We must [that is, we Muslims] must take over. The Jews must be destroyed.”
Now, how are you going to have an agreement that would change that? You must change Islam, and I know there are people listening right now, and say, “Oh well, this is…you’re a fanatic, and they don’t really believe that, or you are back in the Middle Ages—come on! This is the 21st century.”
No, what I am saying is true—it is basic to Islam, and so how are you going to change it? “Well, we’re going to make an agreement. We’re going to promise.” Promise? A promise is only for strategic reasons.
Tom: Dave, last week we touched upon Arafat, and I don’t remember how much we mentioned about his Johannesburg mosque speech. But that’s an example of what you are talking about. Give us a perspective on that.
Dave: Well, basically, in Johannesburg, and he has said this other places as well—he’s even said it live on Palestinian and Jordanian TV—what he said basically was: “All I am doing….” He was trying to justify himself because he was criticized: “Arafat, how can you sign a peace accord with the Israelis? You are legitimizing them, you are recognizing Israel as a valid entity. You can’t sign a piece of paper with them, and you can’t agree to peace because this is contrary to everything our prophet taught, our prophet did and everything Islam stands for.”
And so, he justified himself. He said, “Look, remember the Treaty of Hudaybiya, where our great prophet entered into a ten-year ceasefire with the Meccans—and why did he do it? Because he wasn’t strong enough to fight them at that moment. But two years later, he broke that agreement when he had the troops, and he marched with an army of 10,000 men and took over Mecca, just like that!” And Arafat said, “Please understand! That’s what I’m doing. I’m not betraying Islam, I’m not betraying the Palestinians—I’m just following in the footsteps of our great prophet.”
Tom: Dave, you used the term in your book “justifiable treachery.” That’s what it is. Now let me quote Israeli analyst Moshe Zak. He writes: “It was not lies or stupidity that characterized Arafat’s Johannesburg remarks, but stupendous candor. His forthright, unambiguous remarks were reminiscent of Mein Kampf, in which the author, Hitler, was blunt about his plans—so much so that his adversaries didn’t take him seriously. We all know now that by the time Hitler’s satanic program became a reality, it was too late to stop him.
“Arafat did not commit any slip of the tongue in Johannesburg: he used his call for a jihad and cited Muhammad’s agreement with the Quraish tribe to test his thesis that Israel would swallow that, too. The PLO leader was sure that Israeli protests would strengthen his position among his own people, for he must never appear to be cooperating with Israel against Hamas or Islamic Jihad (two leading terrorist groups). His rhetoric about a holy war to liberate Jerusalem was designed to remove all suspicion of such cooperation.... Whatever the interpretations of Arafat’s statements, one thing is clear: the Palestinian masses understand his message about a holy war to liberate Jerusalem.”
Dave: He says it over and over: “We will have all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, with Jerusalem as our capital.” How many times does he have to say it before they begin to believe that this is what he means? And this is exactly what Islam requires.
So, Tom, what is the point? Israel has offered the Palestinian state to the Palestinians. They have offered their own state to them many times—on one condition: “if you will acknowledge our right to exist.” Furthermore, I’m sure we have mentioned it and maybe more than once—from 1948, when Jordan took East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and Egypt took the Gaza Strip, for 19 years, until 1967—they could have had their…they had their Palestinian State! You never heard one word about a Palestinian State. The Jordanians and the Egyptians put them in the camps—put these so-called Palestinians in the camps—kept them there, would not absorb them into a normal life in their society. They never, ever talked about a Palestinian State.
When they had all this, what did they do? They used this as launching pads for terrorism against Israel, because they want everything—they want it all, and there is no question about that! So what is the point of signing another agreement? What is the point of agreeing to give them a little more land when what they intend is to have everything.
Tom: Dave, I know some people out there, as you alluded to—they’re not real happy with what we are saying, but that begs the question: Why are we saying what we are saying? For example, we have land there—a troubled land, a cup of trembling—not just Jerusalem but the whole area, a time bomb ready to go off. But who has the right to the land, whether you call it Israel or you call it Palestine, who has the right and on what basis?
Dave: Yeah, well, Tom, I am holding in my hand the Title Deed to that land. It’s a title deed that says it belongs to the Jews, that was given to them over 4,000 years ago by God—I guess He has the right. And if you turn to Genesis 17, it’s very clear. I’m sure we must have read this before, but I can’t remember, but anyway, “Abraham…”
Tom: Well, I have some more documents here, Dave, after you finish with that one, more than one place….
Dave: But this is the best document.
Tom: No, I mean, parts of the document, of that document you are holding, which is the Word of God, the Bible.
Dave: Okay, right, but as anyone who knows the Bible knows, this is a history book, and it is also a prophecy book—history written in advance—and Abraham did have a son, Ishmael, and that was his first son, and the first son is surely the heir. And so, Genesis 17 goes through that, and Abraham…God says, “I am going to give you a son by your wife, Sarai, and her name will no longer be Sarai, it will be Sarah,” and Abraham laughs and he says, ‘No, this isn’t possible! Now look, you already gave me a son—Ishmael is a good boy; I really love Ishmael. Why can’t he be the heir?”
This is Genesis 17, and God said, verse 19, “Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.” With his seed after him…. He says, “My covenant,” verse 21, “will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”
Now, Islam says, No, no, Ishmael was the one who was offered on the altar, he’s the son of promise, and so forth. Well then, how do they get around this? Well, they say that the Christians and the Jews corrupted the Bible. The claim is, literally, that Islam is not only the one true religion, it was the original religion—Adam was a Muslim, Noah was a Muslim, King David was a Muslim. So, the Muslims really own Jerusalem; they own this whole land. It all belongs to them. And if the Bible hadn’t been doctored up by the Jews and the Christians, it would read exactly like the Qur’an, because the Qur’an is the holy book that is, you know, inscribed in heaven. Now, Tom…
Tom: Dave, quickly, how do we know it’s not doctored up? You want to start with the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Dave: (chuckling) Well, you could do that—I mean, we can go back, but they would say it was doctored before the Dead Sea Scrolls, okay? So, Tom, we have often said, Look, if you and I…oh, we’re not bright enough…let’s get some geniuses, and they are going to write another book and add it to the Bible, okay? Get out their computers, run through this thing, do word searches, I mean, you’ve got to say something significant—you can’t be just mishmash. How are you going to be sure you didn’t contradict something? Look, the Bible has prophecy—prophecies that were fulfilled; it was written by forty different men over a period of sixteen hundred years. Most of them didn’t know one another, they lived at different times in history, different cultures, and this book hangs together!
There is no way you could take the Qur’an, okay—because they claim it would be like the Qur’an—no way you could take the Qur’an and write all of this in here. The Qur’an doesn’t have any history; the Qur’an doesn’t have any prophecy; the Qur’an has nothing to verify it; the Bible has everything.
You know, I’ve said it before—there may be some Muslim out there listening—we need to have an international debate. You Muslims, give us your proof that the Qur’an is the Word of God; give us your proof that Allah is the true God and that Muhammad is his prophet, and that Muhammad is the 28th prophet (Jesus was the 27th), and that Muhammad has given us the true religion. You give us your proof. I want proof!
We will give you our proof that the Bible is God’s Word. It is infallible—I mean, it says so much, scientifically, for example, historically, prophetically. The Qur’an has nothing like this, and what statements the Qur’an has, we talked about it on this program long ago, you know, the sun gets tired every evening, settles in a slimy pit, and Alexander the Great went there and found it....Come on! And Muhammad was asked this—you have the Hadith in your room—and Muhammed was asked, “Oh, is this really it? surely the prophet knows.”
“Yes, this is what happens, it settles in a slimy pit,” Muhammad said.
Tom, there is no question that the Bible is the Word of God—we can prove it.
Tom: Right. So Dave, on that basis, going back to the question, who has the right to the land? You gave from the document…
Dave: The Title Deed, the Bible.
Tom: The Title Deed, the Bible—let me give you some more. This is Genesis:12:1-3: “Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country…unto a land that I will show thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee….And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee.” Genesis:13:15: “For all the land which thou seest (God speaking to Abram again) to thee I will give it, and to thy seed for ever.”
Dave: See, the problem there, Tom, is that they say, “Yeah, but the seed was Ishmael.” So we’ve got to get beyond that now.
Tom: Well, look, they can say what they want to say. I’m laying out what the Bible says. Genesis:15:18—do you want some geography here? “In that same day the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying, Unto thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates.” Now Dave, parcelling up Israel right now, or giving pieces back and turning land over—this is not what God has in mind.
Dave: Well, they already did that. The British, under the Balfour Declaration, instead of preserving this for the Jews, they gave it away to the Arabs. They created Jordan out of land that belonged to Israel.
Tom: Some more, Dave. Genesis:28:13: “And, behold, the Lord said unto Jacob [not to Ishmael]…I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed:” And one more, Dave. Exodus:6:8: “And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.” I don’t find Ishmael in there.
Dave: No, he is not, and 203 times God is called the God of Israel—never is God called the God of Ishmael. Twelve times He calls Himself, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob: This is my name and this is my memorial unto all generations”—that’s in Exodus 3. He said that to Moses. Jesus said, “He’s the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” okay? Never—not once—does it say “He’s the God of Ishmael.” By the way, it never says He’s the God the Americans; it never says He’s the God of the Arabs, much less of the Muslims; not the God of the French, although the French and the Americans and the Arabs can all believe in Him and be saved through faith in Christ. But He—over and over—He is the God of Israel. And, by the way, the word “Israel” is found in the King James 2,565 times. Never do I read anything about Arabia, about the land of the Arabs, and so forth.
So, they have had to change everything. What they have done is rewritten history, and they have Abraham and Ishmael down in Saudi Arabia building the Kaaba. It was a pagan temple, with over 300 idols in it. Abraham would never build something like that—in fact, he never was down there; this is miles from the Promised Land—hundreds of miles from where Abraham journeyed.
Tom: And this history was written in AD 600. Dave, your last paragraph in chapter 1, or the last section, you title, “Like It or Not.” Now, what we are getting at here is, this isn’t your opinion and my opinion. Yes, we are introducing people to the perspective, but the perspective of the Bible. But you’re dealing with God here. This is what He says. And if you go against it, you’re fighting against God. And I’m saying that for myself, whatever attitude I take about it, or the Israelis, you know, whether they want to capitulate here or there, whatever, this is God’s plan.
Dave: Tom, we’re not only saying it to the Muslims; we’re saying it to President Bush; we’re saying it to the EU, European Union; we’re saying it to the United Nations; we’re saying it to the nations of the world. God has gone on record. He has His program for Jerusalem, for the land of Israel, and for His people, the Jews. And He warns in…He says in Joel:3:1-2: “For, behold, in those days, and in that time, [this is the last days] when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, [‘I’m going to bring the Jews back from all over the world’] I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will plead with them there for my people [that means, ‘I am going to punish them’] for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and have parted [divided] my land.”
This is exactly what the “road map to peace” proposes; this is exactly what the Muslims, insincerely, have proposed: “Give us a little more, give us a little more!” This is exactly what the Israelis are agreeing to. And they are dividing this land, and this is God’s land. You know, Leviticus:25:23: “This is my land; it shall not be sold forever.” So, this is very serious, Tom. This is the title deed right here, the Bible is Israeli’s title deed, but Israel has not obeyed God. They don’t even believe it, so we’re just calling…
Tom: In spite of them, God is going to bring about His will.
Dave: He will. Absolutely.