Why Did God Create Billions He Knew Would Go To Hell?

Tom:

Thanks, Gary.You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to him.Dave, you just returned.For nearly three weeks you were in Germany and you’re back twenty four hours without sleep.But anyway, you were spending a lot of time over there with fellow believers.How did it go and what can you tell us about the spiritual climate over there.

Dave:

Yes, the problem is Ich weiß nicht Deutsch sprechen, meaning I don’t speak German.Meine Frauistsprechen deutsch meaning My wife does speak German.So it’s not too easy to communicate with the people.Some of them do speak English, but then it’s not the best.

Tom:

Yes, well you’re in the Hinterlands, you’re not in the major metropolises right?

Dave:

Well we were in I would say, some large towns, yes.It’s hard for me to remember the names of these places.I spoke in the civic auditorium of—

Tom:

But it’s not like Berlin or Deusldorf or Frankfort—

Dave:

No.

Tom:

You know large metropolises like that right?

Dave:

No, I did not speak in any of those large cities, but I would say we had good meetings in a half a dozen or more cities and some churches and some auditoriums.It’s always encouraging all over the world to find there are people who love the Lord.He has his followers everywhere.And pretty much the same problems.Can’t find a good church that teaches sound doctrine.There are various heresies afloat, some of them coming from the U. S.But I would say we had encouraging meetings.I spoke at a Bible school in Breckerfeld.Breckerfeld Bibelschule and to the students there for a couple of days.I think I gave them six or seven talks on Calvinism.They wanted to hear about that.They tell me that Calvinism is becoming more of an issue over there.

Tom:

As it is here.

Dave:

Right.Now I was not in Holland.It’s pretty much Calvinistic in Holland, not so much in Germany.More Lutherans and you know, the Reformation left a lot of Catholicism clinging to the so-called Reformed churches.Infant baptism for salvation, that if you are baptized as a baby, you thereby become a child of God, you are forgiven of your sins and so forth.But I speak on what they want me to speak on.Generally they wanted me to speak about Israel and Islam.That was much of what I talked about.They’re concerned about that.

Tom:

Dave, let me interject this.You’ve been over there a number of times.You don’t go every year, but you have been at least this year, you’ve been over there twice.Do you see some major changes?We have the European Union.Is this affecting Christians, or their beliefs or their concerns?

Dave:

Actually this year I was twice in England, once in Romania, and once in Germany.I think last year—I think I’ve been to Germany every year for the last few years.Last year I spoke at a fairly large conference—mostly Brethren Assemblies, Open Brethren who are generally a very sound group.

Tom:

Conservative, definitely.

Dave:

Yes, do I see changes?I don’t spend enough time there to really be conversant with the changes that are going on.People tell me about the changes.It isn’t gettting better.I would say the church is going downhill.For example, one quite large Brethren Assembly that I spoke to overflowing audiences two years ago—not too many people showed up.In fact, the people who showed up were not from that fellowship.Probably not over 200 or so at that meeting, maybe a few more.

Tom:

As opposed to the year before, what?

Dave:

No, two years ago.I would say probably 400, double that amount.The same thing in Romania.This summer Ruth and I stayed in a very large evangelical church, I mean huge!Built by German money.The Romanians couldn’t build it.It was quite luxurious.They rented us a room there.Four years ago I had spoken to an overflow crowd there, probably six or seven hundred people.Now I didn’t speak at all in that church.I was speaking elsewhere, although we stayed in that church.But the—

Tom:

Because the church had what?Facilities?

Dave:

Right, but the maintenance man, the custodian—his words were not very many people come to this church anymore, because they don’t get any spiritual food.Take that from the maintenance man.So I see a downward slide.Among evangelicals and for example, Juan Siles, Word of Life, in charge there in Romania, told me that they have had to pull some of their Word of Life clubs out of some—what used to be sound evangelical churches, because they just have so much false doctrine now.

Tom:

Now Word of Life over there, they would be youth oriented, but they’re solid, they’re very conservative and hte programs they would present would appeal to young people.

Dave:

But the churches don’t want them anymore, because they’re too sound in doctrine, so that would be some what of an idea what we find.Not good, I don’t see great revival.People are getting saved, but by and large the churches as a whole are going into church growth, signs and wonders, they are getting away from doctrine, solid biblical teaching, and that of course is the downward path.

Tom:

Well, that’s a great concern that we have in our programming here.Our program is called “Search the Scriptures Daily” and Dave, where else are we going to turn except to God’s Word?We need God’s people, there’s no doubt about that, but our authority, our feeding, that which would be great comfort, great encouragement, conviction that brings conviction—all of these things come from God’s Word and if we don’t have an appetite, we don’t have a heart for that, what are we left with?

Dave:

We are left with the ideas of man; the wisdom of man which is foolishness with God.If we are not hearing from God, if we are not following his Word, what are we doing?Making up our own Christianity as we go?You can’t invent your own Christianity.It has established doctrines founded by Jesus Christ.Of course it goes back in the Old Testament to the prophecies, the gospel of God, Paul says, which he promised by his prophets.Now if you abandon that, what do you have?Well, we got the latest techniques, the management principles that work very well in secular business and we’re going to try and attract people with this method or that.Well this is the wisdom of man and it will not save souls and you know the rule.You attract them with entertainment and light and frothy stuff without sound biblical teaching, then you will have to keep them that way—the people that you attract by that means.

Tom:

And you have to keep uping the anti as it were.You have to give them more and more because that doesn’t satisfy.

Dave:

Yes, we can’t compete—the church can’t compete with Hollywood.

Tom:

Well and it ought not to even think they can, because we have God’s Word, God’s truth, that which sets people free.That which encourages.

Dave:

But they’re trying to compete Tom, that’s the tragedy.

Tom:

Yes, I know.Yes, well what we’ve been going through here for a number of weeks, we’ve been taking Dave’s book In Defense of the Faith, and it really has to do with THE faith.The faith once and for all delivered unto the saints.Not Dave Hunt’s ideas, not T. A. McMahon’s, not any teacher out there, except God, who is through the Holy Spirit, our teacher.And that’s what we’re trying to encourage.For people to be as you said earlier, sound in the faith.Paul writes to Titus, a young pastor, “Sound doctrine, this is what’s important, because it’s only that which will deliver you, only that which will solve the problems that we get into through sin and so on and so forth, but also it encourages us in our walk with the Lord, pleasing him in every way.

Dave:

It’s very simple.God created the universe.He created us.He makes the rules.One day we stand before him in judgment.What’s the point of trying to please men, impress people?You could build a huge church, but one day we stand before the Lord and he has the last word.He has the final say.Well he’s already given it to us in his Word.Why delude ourselves and dance along thinking how wonderful it is and find out it is all wood, hay, and stubble?So I don’t try to impress people.Why would we want to impress people?I want the Lord to be honored and glorified in what I say and think and do.Because that’s all that matters.

Tom:

Yes, and that’s all we’re trying to do here in this program is encourage people to that end.Now Dave, your book In Defense of the Faith, in it you have numerous questions of people who have raised objections to the very thing that we’re talking about—God’s Word.And you’ve over your many, many years of ministry, have a whole range of questions and I think it’s worthwhile to address these things.Look, if God’s Word claims to be THE truth—

Dave:

Which it does.

Tom:

And it does what John:17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
See All..., “Thy word is truth,” Jesus said.So it either is or it isn’t, but we know it is and we know it can be defended and you have some answers to these questions which are in some cases, they’re difficult questions, but again, we’re addressing it through God’s Word.So the first question is: A friend who used to claim to be a Christian but who now calls himself an atheist presented a problem to me that I couldn’t solve.He is willing to concede (for the sake of argument, though he doesn’t believe it) that sin comes by man’s wrong use of the power of choice given to him.Even then, however, he insists that we can’t exonerate God because, knowing the evil and suffering that would follow, God nevertheless chose to create man.Even worse, God created billions of beings that He not only knew would suffer on this earth but whom He knew He would consign to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire!Can you help me answer him?

Dave:

Well Tom, first of all it sound like this man is in favor of exterminating the human race.He doesn’t have any solution, so he seems to imply it would have been better if God hadn’t created anybody.Well that’s the same as extermination.Let the whole thing be as though it never had been and wipe out mankind and just wipe the slate clean and forget about it.

Tom:

Not a lot of hope in that.

Dave:

No.Then he says, he disagrees that it’s the power of choice that opened the door to sin.Well I don’t know any other way that it could happen.Why would God give us the power of choice?Because he loves us!He doesn’t want prisoners.He doesn’t want robots, he doesn’t want puppets.He commanded, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and so forth.”Love is the most beautiful experience anyone can have.The greatest novels and so forth, poetry and without the power of choice there is no love.It’s that simple.So now what is God going to do?We’re going to fault him for creating beings to whom he gave the power of choice.They don’t have to sin.He does everything he can.He wants them to love him.He wants to bless them, but they rebel.Now I don’t know whether the person, I can’t even remember—this was a long time ago—where this question came from, but maybe this person has a parent.Maybe they have some children.Can you guarantee that every one of your children will do what is right?Will be a blessing?I mean how many—

Tom:

Yes, even if those individuals made up the rules—because well saying there’s not God therefore we’re going to set our own standards, we’re going to set our own morality, integrity and so.

Dave:

Yes, I mean I think of the many—and it really breaks my heart—often when I read of some crime and some one arrested for horrible offenses.You know we’ve had some sex crimes, murders recently.We had the sniper and I often think of that person as a little baby.The hopes and dreams that the parents had for them and what happened?Well, they have the power of choice.You can’t force them to do what you want them to do.And this is what God did.He made man.Isaiah 1 God said, “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

 ³The ox knoweth his owner and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.”Foolish people!When you think of the prophets that he sent one after the other pleading with his people, “I am going to have to punish you in my holiness.”Something that this man doesn’t mention.But it is God’s holiness, his righteousness that causes the judgment that comes upon sin.God is not going to compromise.He can’t.That would change his character.And you can’t change his character that would change his Word.You couldn’t trust him if he went back on what he said.So now we’ve got a problem.What’s God going to do?

Tom:

Well that’s the question.And we’ve heard this from other circles, not just from atheists.God creates billions who he knows are going to go to hell, in the Lake of Fire and so on and so forth.Why would a good God know that where they’re going to end up and notice I didn’t say determining or preordaining, but I’m just saying knowing that they would, why would a good God do this?

Dave:

Yes, well Tom in the book I see that I give an illustration that I have used many times especially with college students.I used it for many years.I can’t even remember when I invented this idea.Probably on the spur of the moment.

Tom:

Dave, before you give it, I taught middle school Bible and I remember my first year, a little sixth grader raised his hand and asked this very question.Well, why would God?Talk about—what I’ve love is your response.I mean I had to go pray about it and think about it and I came up with something very similar, but any way I’m jumping ahead of you.Why don’t you give us your illustration?

Dave:

Okay, well Tom just for the sake of argument I propose this:Let’s say a million years ago, ten million years ago, it doesn’t matter.Back in the past before any human beings were ever created these being who were going to end up—

Tom:

Dave, don’t do that.We’re going get calls from the young earth people, okay?

Dave:

No, this is before any earth, this is before any universe.Way in the past.

Tom:

Oh, okay, sorry.

Dave:

This is theoretical, purely theoretical.These are uncreated spirits and they stage a protest march before the throne of God.They have placards and are organized and speeches to be given and so forth.But basically what they say is “Look God, we are going to end up in hell tormented forever because you will make us for yourself and we will be tormented with an unquenchable thirst for you forever because you made us to love you, to know you, and this isn’t just some casual possibility, but it is essential to our very being and therefore without you, separated from you we are going to be in agony forever!We demand the right not to be created!”Well what does God say to them?Well he says, “You are going to be—some of you are going to be the parents—mothers, fathers, children, cousins, uncles, aunts, relatives near and distant of people who will spend eternity in my presence in the indescribably bliss and joy.Now the human race comes as a package.There’s no way that I could just create them without you.That’s the way it works.You don’t just create people out of the air.They are born of parents and so forth.They have siblings, they have relatives.

Tom:

Ancestry.

Dave:

Right.And God would say, “Look, if I don’t create you, I don’t create them.They do not exist.Is it fair that because you are going to be so stubborn and rebellious, in spite of my providing salvation for you, my Son is going to come and die for your sins and pay the penalty for your sins so that I can forgive you and bring you into eternal joy in my presence, but you are going to be so stubborn that you’re going to refuse this.You are going to be so rebellious and hateful of my love, that you are going to refuse to let me save you and bring you into my joy, then because of that I’m going to give into you and I’m not going to create these millions or billions, I think there would be billions of others who will be in my presence in eternal bliss forever?No, God says, “I’m not going to give into your demands.That would be giving in to evil.”So the human race was created, Adam and Eve as we know and the easiest command that he could give—we’ve talked about it many times.They must have had a thousand trees, maybe thousands of trees and God said, “Look, just don’t eat of this tree.You can eat of any other tree, but just don’t eat of this tree.”You couldn’t give an easier command.And they rebelled and they just had to have that tree.So sin entered into the world.But you know, God had a plan of redemption.He sent his Son—Father, Son and Holy Spirit.You cannot have redemption without the Trinity.You cannot really have anything without the Trinity.It wasn’t God the Father, or God the Spirit who died on the cross.People often say well where was God?Who was running the universe when God died? Well Jesus is God.But he’s not the Father or the Holy Spirit.And furthermore, death is not annihilation, it’s not unconsciousness.So the Son of God comes, became a man, paid the penalty for our sins.In love and mercy offers pardon to everyone.

Tom:

Whosoever will, Dave.

Dave:

You cannot fault God!I cannot fault God!There is no way that I could fault God for what he has done!Now the Calvinist says, “No it pleased God to not just create billions who would go to hell, by their own choice.No they don’t believe in choice.It pleased God to literally predestine billions to the Lake of Fire, that he could have predestined to eternal life, because they don’t believe in the power of choice.So I think we have an answer from the Bible.I think Calvinism plays into the hands of these critics and atheists.

Tom:

Dave, where is it, what is it, John:5:4For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
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Dave:

“Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life.These are they that testify of me and you will not come to me that ye might have life.”

Tom:

You will not.It’s really what it comes down to.