Dave & Tom Classic - Rick Warren (Part 2)

Program Description:In this special edition classic program, Dave and Tom continue their lively discussion on Rick Warren and The Purpose Driven Life. Includes a Q&A session with questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.

Transcript:

Gary: Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for tuning in. In today’s program, we continue with a Dave and Tom Classic from our Search the Scriptures Daily archives. First broadcast in 2006, this is a live call-in program on the topic of The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.  We pick up with part two of a two-part series.

Gary: Dave, calling in from Kalispell, Montana, tonight. Dave, good evening! You’re on Search the Scriptures Daily.

[Caller]: Yes, good evening, Dave, T.A. Glad to talk to you. God bless! I think you guys are doing a terrific job.

Tom: Thanks for your encouragement, Dave.

[Caller]: You betcha. You know, you guys…you know, it’s kind of hard to stick your neck out there and criticize things. I know up here in Montana, that book has gone crazy up here, and I think every church and pretty much every denomination seems to be looking at it and reading it. I have. But I take it as I take most books that are not the Bible, and that is that, you know, I look at it, and…yeah, it’s a nice book, and so on and so forth. But I didn’t realize…you know, I knew that I had read scriptures and things in there – you know, or they were claiming they were scripture. But I didn’t remember reading those, or, you know, they were kind of out of context, so I think you guys are doing terrific, and I think you should keep it up. I listen to your show all the time. I think you guys are on line. You know, if you’re following the Bible, how can you go wrong?

Tom: Right.

Dave: Well, we’re trying to, Dave. Thanks!

Tom: Thanks, Dave.

Dave, let’s address some of the issues. For example, throughout the book, Rick has many quotes by individuals. And I’ve got a list of the people that he’s quoted here, and I don’t know why. For example, Henry David Thoreau, a transcendentalist, okay? George Bernard Shaw – these people don’t understand the gospel; they’re not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.

Dave: They’re (…..) atheists.

Tom: Right. We have Dr. Bernie Siegel…

Dave: Now…now, Tom. You could quote an atheist if you’re talking about scientific things or how to repair a motor or how to fly an airplane. Atheists are very competent at this sort of thing. But this is supposed to be a spiritual book, guiding people into a spiritual purpose for their lives.

Tom: Dave, most of the people that he quotes are actually Roman Catholic mystics: St. John of the Cross, Henry Nouwen (priest, Catholic priest), Mother Teresa, Madame Guyon, on and on…. I don’t know why! Except, and you know, there’s a whole section in this book in which, and I can’t understand why Rick Warren – he’s a Baptist – why he is encouraging people with really a form of mysticism with contemplative approaches to prayer, and so on. And he even gives you the methodologies and the techniques. I don’t get it!

Dave: Well, Tom, he has apparently read these people, spent a lot of time. In fact, what is his…the man that he reads his specific book every year?

Tom: Well, that would be Peter Drucker…

Dave: Peter Drucker, right.

Tom: Of course he’s a management guru –

Dave: Right.

Tom: …man who’s into telling you how to organize your business and make it more successful.

Dave: Right.

Tom: Now how does that apply to the church?

Dave: Well, the pastor becomes a CEO, Chief Executive Officer, but apparently Rick has spent a lot of time studying these things, and he has found in them some ideas that support what he is trying to get across, and so he uses them for support.

Tom: Right. But mysticism, Dave? I don’t get it. Well, Gary! We’ve got another caller?

Gary: Yes, Tom, a real live “Cheesehead” here, calling in from Green Bay, Wisconsin, this evening. Flynn, welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily.

[Caller]: Thanks for taking my call, you guys. God bless you!

Tom: He didn’t offend you, did he?

[Caller]: What’s that?

Tom: He didn’t offend you, calling you a Cheesehead, did he?

[Caller]: No. I actually don’t watch the Packers too often.

Dave and Tom: [laughing]

Tom: Okay.

[Caller]: So, I do appreciate the call and I want to make it quick. I know there’s lots of people on the line. I’ve heard some connections making - I guess the connection was like, Dave, what you were reading with the Lord’s prayer, and you got to The Message where it says, “Do what’s best.” And the line right below that, in reference to “in earth as it is in heaven,” The Message actually refers to it as…it says, “As above, so below.”

Dave: Mm-hmm.

[Caller]: And, you know, there’s a, there is seemingly a connection, I guess, in…with some of the reference to the New Age, if I could just read…this is Ronald S. Miller in…through the New Age Journal. His quote is, “As above, so below; as below, so above.” It says, “This maxim implies that the transcendental…or transcendent in God beyond the physical universe and the imminent God within ourselves are one.”

So here you’ve got in the Lord’s Prayer, according to, which is at best a paraphrase, it says, “As above, so below,” which seems to be a maxim of referring to God, sort of in us and...I don’t know. There seems to be some kind of New Age connection there, and I don’t…I was a little bit confused on that, and Rick Warren seems to focus on that. I guess on page 88 of The Purpose Driven Life he makes a similar phrase, referring to the paraphrase, he says, “He rules everything [referring to God], is everywhere, and in everything.” And it seems like there is a connection between the idea of we all have purpose; and God has programmed all of our genes to have purpose. You know, every single person seems to be a child of God in reference to “we all have purpose.” No longer do you need to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Everybody seems to have this in them imminently.

Tom: Well, there are some things here that, you know, as you said, these are confusing. I wouldn’t accuse Rick Warren of being a New Ager. You know, he certainly has a Baptist background, and so on. But I don’t understand why he is sort of dabbling in some of these things. Again, folks, if you’ve not been through the book, or you’ve been through it once but haven’t read it carefully and you want to go back through it again, and these things are not small items here and there. There seems to be a thrust – at least for a time – as you go through the book. So it is confusing. Absolutely.

Dave: Well, this paraphrase, “He is everywhere and is in everything.” Well, He is everywhere, but He is not in everything. That’s pantheism. And it just simply perverts the Bible. It claims to be a quote from the Bible, and it isn’t, and yes, indeed, there is a connection of…Tom says, and I would agree with him, I wouldn’t accuse Rick of being a New Ager. Nevertheless, why does he use this phrase, which is so common among New Agers, and which has the very meaning that you ascribed to it.

So it does raise some serious questions.

Tom: Dave, right after that scripture – I think it may be the…oh, it’s the New Century Version, I believe, but this is what he says. He presents prayer almost as mantras verging on vain repetitions. I’m quoting him now: “Use breath prayers throughout the day, as many Christians [and of course, he says, “Christians,” but it’s actually Catholic mystics] have done for centuries. Choose a brief sentence or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath: ‘You are with me,’” and you repeat that over and over again, or “‘I receive your grace.’” You repeat that over and over again. “‘I’m depending on you.’” “ ‘I want to know you.’” These are little phrases that you repeat, again, Dave, over and over again.

These are like mantras! You don’t find…these are vain repetitions that the Scripture talks about. He goes on to say – oh, here’s another one: “Help me trust you.” And then he says, “Pray it as often as possible so it is rooted deep in your heart.” Is that the way it works, Dave?

Dave: Well, Tom, there’s nothing wrong with saying, “Help me praise You,” or…

Tom: Of course not…

Dave: …but to repeat it over and over and over, it’s kind of…well, Jesus warns about this – and that, again, is a part of mysticism or New Ageism. Jesus said, “Use not vain repetitions as the heathen, who think they will be heard for their much speaking.” It’s not how many times I say it. It’s like spinning a prayer wheel in Tibet. But it’s the attitude of my heart. And this turns the focus rather from the attitude of my heart to a mantra-like repetition. Again, you can say, “It’s not a big thing.”

Well, okay, not a big thing, but it adds up. There’s so many of these problems.

Tom: Well, Dave, he goes on – I’m on page 102-3 – he’s talking about a book called Sacred Pathways, a book he highly recommends, and the author, Gary Thomas, he identifies nine of the ways people draw near to God.

Now you tell me which of these is biblical, all right? It says, “Naturalists are most inspired to love God out of doors in natural settings. Sensates [I assume people who are sensually oriented] love God with their senses and appreciate beautiful worship services that involve sight, taste, smell, and touch, not just their ears. Traditionalists draw closer to God through rituals, liturgies, symbols, and unchanging structures. Ascetics prefer to love God in solitude and simplicity.

Now, on the other hand, later in the book, he contradicts that, saying “The Bible knows nothing of solitary saints or spiritual hermits, isolated ….” So that’s why people are confused when they read this. “Activists love God through confronting evil, battling in justice, and working to make the world a better place. Caregivers love God by loving others.”

Dave, is this…I thought the flesh profits nothing. I thought that we worship God in spirit and in truth. I don’t find these things in the Scripture.

Dave: Absolutely never does the Bible say that I learn to worship God through some physical prop or a ritual, a sacrament, or whatever. But Rick seems to be recommending all of these things. Now that fits in with something that he calls “venues.” He has eight venues now in his church. That means different places where you can go for worship. You have different styles of worship. Different styles of music, and so forth. And he even tries to say that this is the way the apostles did it! They went to the courts in the temple, and he takes that from the NIV, the only translation so-called that even uses the word “courts,” and it is not in the Greek! So the NIV dreamed it up. Even The Message doesn’t use that. But Rick, then, says, “Circle the ‘s’ in “courts.” And then he bases this false translation – you couldn’t find it anywhere else – that becomes the foundation for a methodology that he uses. “Now we’re going to give people – they like loud music? Okay! They like this style of worship…” and so forth and so on. And he says, “We’re going to have 30 courts one day!”

Well, now, yes, there were four courts in the temple: There was the priests’ court. There was then womens’ court. There was the Gentiles’ court. And the mens’ court. And they were not separated in order to separate people that wanted different kinds of music and different kinds of worship. There was a very practical reason for it: men from women, priests from the ordinary, and so forth.

So, Tom, I’m not comfortable – really, believe me - with this program. I’m not comfortable seeming to criticize Rick. On the other hand, if we have a book that is selling a million copies a month, and there is so much in it that is leading people astray. It claims to be based on the Bible. It is not based on the Bible. It is based on paraphrases. He has to search to find one that will support him. It’s based on ideas of men, and, Tom, even perversions of those. That concerns me deeply.

I’ll tell you one of the reasons it concerns me: how is it that 20-some million, well, 20-some million books – more people than that, maybe twice that many, husbands and wives, maybe parents and children – how is it that so many millions of people can read this and be so pleased with it and not recognize the errors that are being taught?

Now, Tom, I mentioned on our program, I’m sitting next to a woman on the plane. She’s not a Christian. She doesn’t have a clue as to the gospel. I presented the gospel to her, and I think she really opened her heart to the Lord. She loved (she’s a businesswoman), she loved The Purpose Driven Life. It didn’t bring her to Christ. She didn’t get any spiritual value out of it. She thought it was helping her with her management techniques. And I think that may be true of many people out there.

Gary: And on the line from Rexburg, Idaho, Tom and Dave, is Kim. Kim, good evening!

[Caller]: Hello! Can you hear me okay?

Tom: We can hear you fine. Thanks for calling in.

[Caller]: Good! Thank you for taking my call. First, if I could, I just wanted to thank you folks for your ministry and discernment generally, and in particular in relation to The Purpose Driven Life, The Message, and that sort of movement in the country today.

I just wanted then to go ahead and say, if I could, is that it seems that what’s going on in that movement is that it’s sort of an intermixing of the world agenda and politics, economics, and religion with the church as part of sort of bringing all of that together and ushering in what appears to be prophetically in Scripture to be the end-times church apostasy, and, anyway, the end times ruled by the Antichrist, false prophet, and mark of the beast, and interestingly enough, in the town that’s near me, Idaho Falls, it’s just like up in Montana. It’s taken over many of the churches, so to speak, and the people that we know that have gone to those churches seem to be accepting it enthusiastically without any discernment, and it’s tough to really speak to them. So it grieves my spirit, and I’m certainly concerned, as you folks are. And that’s really all I wanted to say, and if you have some comments on that, but…bless you folks and hopefully you’ll continue to enlighten people on this movement.

Tom: Yeah, thanks for your call, Kim! It does grieve us, Dave, and all we’re asking –again, the name of the program is Search the Scriptures Daily – that’s our encouragement to everybody out there. Check us out, check everybody…. Don’t become a cynic, all right? But healthy skepticism in these days, Dave, is important, and we just want people to be thoughtful. Anything that comes down the pike that smacks of spirituality or religion or something like that, let’s be a little bit thoughtful!

Dave, as I mentioned earlier, Rick talks about, at the beginning of the book, that he is against pop psychology. Let me just give you a few quotes here. He’s talking about – this is on page 233 – he says, “Jacob was insecure. Joseph was abused. Samson was codependent. David had an affair and all kinds of basically dysfunctional family problems. Elijah was suicidal. Jeremiah was depressed. Peter was impulsive.” He goes on, and then he moves into the temperaments. He said, “The Bible gives plenty of proof that God uses all types of personalities. Peter was sanguine. Paul was choleric. Jeremiah was a melancholy. There is no right or wrong temperament for ministry. Your personality will affect how and where you use your spiritual gifts and abilities.”

Dave, is this pop psychology or not?

Dave: It is pop psychology, unfortunately. There’s no scientific or biblical support for any of that stuff. So, I’m sanguine, okay? Or I’m choleric. I guess I’m stuck with that!

Go back to where I read from in chapter 2: “Well, that’s the way God made me.” So I’m just going to be choleric. I’m just going to be angry and so forth. I’m going to have a short fuse.

No! The Bible teaches self-control. Do I have to be choleric? No, I don’t have to be choleric. But that’s the idea that you would get from this. “I’ve got this personality.” Furthermore, it came from God!

Tom: Right.

Dave: And I’m stuck with it…

Tom: And these categories are right out of the occult! I mean the temperaments didn’t start with any scientific research by any means. It goes back…

Dave: It actually back to astrology.

Tom: …to the Greeks. Right. Gary, do we have another caller?

Gary: Yes, Tom and Dave, calling all the way across the country from Fredericksburg, Virginia, tonight is Robert. Robert, you’re on the air with Dave and Tom.

Tom: Welcome, Robert!

[Caller]: Hey! How are y’all doing tonight? I love your show! God bless you, and God bless your ministry. My question is, basically, that these men you’re talking about, especially the one that wrote this book, he said he’s a Baptist. He confessed being…he’s a minister of God. Well, I mean, my Bible tells me, like in Revelation 21 or 22 where it says “any change of this book,” you know, the penalty’s going to be worse on him. And then in Galatians:1:8-9 [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
See All..., it talks about, you know, if we or an angel from heaven change…preaching of the gospel “from what we preached, let them be accursed.” Well, if this man’s a Christian man, well, what I’m seeing a lot through a lot of churches and a lot of people I talk to throughout the country (I’m a truck driver – I talk to a lot of people) it seems to me a lot of churches you have more people who are preaching religion than actually really studying God’s Word, taking God’s Word and, you know, reading it and studying it, and that’s the main thing. It’s only how you’re going to grow as a Christian is in your prayer life, your Christian life, and your studying of God’s Word and getting books out there and things, you know, a good concordance and Bible – things that you can, you know, interpret the Greek or the Hebrew, however you study and all.

But I see a lot of things what you’re talking about [this] man here, it goes to me that you get more people putting their faith in man than in the Holy Spirit, in God, and in Jesus Christ.

Dave: Yeah, Robert, I agree with you. And thank you very much for your call. It’s…what we need to do is know the Bible. We need to study it, feed upon it, and, yeah, we appreciate that very much. Thank you!

Tom: Yeah, Dave, let me give you an example of what he’s talking about. Toward the end of the book on page 285, Rick says, “When the disciples wanted to talk about prophecy [I’m quoting Rick now], Jesus switched the conversation to evangelism. He wanted them to concentrate on their mission in the world. He said, in essence, ‘The details of my return are none of your business. What is your business is the mission I’ve given you. Focus on that.’”

Now, Dave, if somebody followed Rick in this, as this guy said, people are…preacher! they just look to the preacher, not to the Word of God. But if anybody goes to Matthew 24, you find that that’s not the case. First of all, in response to the disciples questioning Jesus about the signs of His coming, He did not quickly switch the conversation…

Dave: Absolutely. Tom, let me interrupt – interject…

Tom: Go ahead.

Dave: It’s not true. Rick Warren – I wish he were listening – you lied about what Jesus said! I don’t know how to put it any other way!

Tom: Well, Dave, just to throw this in: he just picked the…I think it was in Mark, or, you know, no, I’m sorry, in Acts – he referred to the verse in Acts. I just went back to Matthew and said you can’t apply this and say generally that Jesus didn’t want them to get into prophecy or to understand these things. That’s all.

Dave: But, Tom, even in the Book of Acts, they asked, “Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Jesus said, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons” that He’s put into His own power. The Father’s going to do this, but Jesus was not turning them away from prophecy!

It was not a question about prophecy. And you point to Matthew 24. There they asked for signs…

Tom: He gives them 40 verses!

Dave: That’s … exactly! He gives them sign after sign after sign. So Rick is…he’s got an agenda. He wants to make a point, and then he perverts the Scripture – even twists what Jesus says. And that’s a big concern.

Tom: Well, Dave, if a person listening to this does not say, “Okay, Rick, I hear what you’re saying, but now let me look at the Scriptures. You see, if they don’t, they’re going to be led astray. But if they do, they can then go to Rick or any pastor and say, “Pastor, explain this to me. I don’t quite understand.

Dave: Exactly. Exactly.

Gary: Tom, we have a short time left and we’ll take one more call from Erwin, Tennessee. Here is Shane. You’re on the air with Dave and Tom, Shane.

Tom: Thanks for calling, Shane!

[Caller]: Yes, hello! God bless you guys. I just have a quick question that I think is very relevant. The Bible says to examine all things and to hold fast to that which is good. Could we possibly say that The Purpose Driven Life or The Purpose Driven Church does have some good things that can be used? And that Christians should read it with an open mind but an open Bible, and there are good things that can come out of that? Or should be just make everything black or white, categorize it, say that it’s got an error, therefore I’m going to throw the whole thing in the trash?

Dave: Well, you make a good point, Shane. And maybe we have been emphasizing the things that are wrong with it, but there is so much wrong that I would not recommend it for someone…particularly for a young Christian; and particularly a non-Christian, because he begins very early in the book before he even gives the gospel, that he says, “Your home is in heaven, you know, this your destiny,” and so forth. So I suppose you might get some good things, but Tom has been through it three times. What good things could you recommend out of it, Tom?

Tom: Dave, you know, I appreciate what Shane had to say. There are some things in it. But the problem is is that when you really lock onto something that’s good, Rick ends up contradicting that. So, you want to start off with him. You want to err on the side of mercy – give him the benefit of the doubt. But page after page, you say, “Well, wait a minute. I thought he just said this.”

You know, the reaction that I’ve had from people who wanted to get into the program and so on had to put the book down because they were so confused by it. Now, why, then, is it selling at the rate it’s selling, Dave? I haven’t got a good…

Dave: That’s a good question.

Tom: Well, I have some ideas, but maybe for another program.

Dave: I think it’s rather humanistic. I think it’s…it is about you. It is about your importance and so forth. And I think it’s something that appeals to people – even to non-Christians. And, sadly, they don’t get the gospel out of it.

Gary: You’ve been listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon.

We offer many resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708.  Call us at 800-937-6638, or visit our web site at thebereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in and we hope you can be here again next week.  Until then, we encourage you to search the Scriptures 24/7.