Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could tune in. In today’s program, Tom concludes a two-part series with guest Chris Quintana as they address the question: “What’s New in the New Apostolic Reformation?” Here’s TBC executive director, Tom McMahon.
Tom: Thanks, Gary. We’re dealing with New Apostolic Reformation, and my guest has been Chris Quintana, and Chris is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Cypress, which is located in Orange County, as I mentioned, and Chris has been featured in the video series Wide Is the Gate, which is an apologetic documentary that deals with trends in the church that have undermined the biblical faith and have drawn many Christians away from the Word of God. So, Chris, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.
Chris: Well, thank you, Tom. It’s great to be back!
Tom: Chris, as I mentioned at the end of the program last week, we want to move on in this… it’s worse than a trend, it’s almost like a tsunami affecting the church, and it’s called, as I mentioned, the New Apostolic Reformation, NAR – we’ll be using that term when we refer to it, and it has gathered, it has collected, it has caught up – I used the analogy of a spider web – it has attracted and caught up literally millions of Christians, certainly professing Christians but also true believers in some cases, who have not been Bereans – have not really checked this out. We’ll talk about what the attraction is, but, again, Chris, last week I said, “So we have a title: New Apostolic Reformation.” Let’s, between the two of us, give some names out here so that they can [say]: “Wait a minute! I know this person. I didn’t know he was into that.” Well, how about let’s go through the litany of many of those…and some ministries that are involved in this, and then, as we proceed, we can give some explanation. So who would you start with?
Chris: Well, we had mentioned C. Peter Wagner, of course. He’s a great one to look at. Cindy Jacobs…gosh, for that matter, go look at anybody that you put on God TV or Daystar, or any of those people. Whether they’re out in front and talking about these things all the time – the Kansas City Prophets are great ones to point to – but I mentioned last week that they’re now hitching their wagons, the NAR people, many of them, are hitching their wagons to Donald Trump. So I saw Cindy Jacobs there; I saw (actually not Cindy Jacobs)…but I saw Paula White there, and a number of the people that you’ll see on TBN all the time are there. And some others you wouldn’t expect. But if you think of the Kansas City Prophets, of Jim Goll, John Paul Jackson, Bob Jones (though he’s gone), these are people – many of those people who branched off from the Vineyard movement went into kind of a hyper-charismatic side of things. Out here, I would think of guys like…out in my area, Bill Johnson, further up the state; Che Ahn, kind of more from my area. The Elijah List is a great place, if you want to find out who these people are, I wouldn’t recommend believing anything that you see there, but it’s kind of a clearing house of this whole mentality and the people who are very much involved in the movement. Those are some of the names. Patricia King is another one, Todd Bentley; look at the Pensacola Revivals, Brownsville – these are some of the things that have happened over the last several years. And that’s kind of a Who’s Who of the movement.
Tom: And last week, just in general, you know, we mentioned Charisma magazine. This would be the voice, or the publishing device, for many of these individuals. And…or you could look to the word-faith movement; the signs and wonders movement; the healing and prosperity movement. All those involved in many different ways within those movements and in particular, as we talked about last week, Chris, the Kingdom Dominion movement.
Now, last week I talked about C. Peter Wagner and his Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare. The whole idea was to take dominion, to beat the Adversary back, Satan back, and through all these different devices, techniques, and technologies that he talked about in spiritual…Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare. But back in the nineties – and he’s still, as far as I know, still a part of this - would be somebody like Jack Hayford. Jack Hayford – even his…one of the hymns that he’s most noted for, Majesty – that’s a “restoration” hymn. “Majesty, worship His majesty.…” It talks about taking dominion, and he was involved heavily back in the late eighties - early nineties, of “taking cities for Christ.” This is a part of Dominionism.
So, that’s a concern that we have, that, again, folks, this is not just a small group here that is creating some issues. Now, the thing I want to mention that we could talk about, Chris, is they believe – all of the people involved in the New Apostolic Reformation – not only that they are “new apostles” and this is something new and they’re going to reform (but I like your word better – they’re going to restore) the earth. Jesus is held in the heavenlies. He cannot return until they restore dominion. And in this process of restoring dominion, they believe that they are not just Manifest Sons of God in the Latter Rain Movement, but they are part of Joel’s Army. What about that, Chris?
Chris: Sure, because you see, when you think of Joel, Joel has a very famous end-times chapter that Peter quotes from in Acts 2 when he talks about the things happening at Pentecost. And so, they look at themselves as that ushering-in force that brings about the Second Coming. Something we haven’t mentioned, and I think this will help put things into perspective, there is what they call the Seven Mountains strategy. And so, the Seven Mountains – they refer to them as “we’re going to reclaim the culture. We’re going to reestablish a culture that is correct in this New Apostolic way.” These seven areas would be Education, Arts, Entertainment, Government, Reclaiming the Family, Reclaiming or reforming Religious Institutions, but then getting involved in the Business aspect of things, and the Media. And they feel that if they could infiltrate all of those areas, that’s bringing dominion back to these things, then it leads to how you end up getting entire nations, and reclaiming… I’ve heard them talk about how we’re going to get “our” person in the White House. “We’re” going to take over the Congress; “we’re” going to take over the Supreme Court. And what that just shows is how invested they are in this world, which is really kind of interesting when you stop to think about it. It almost seems like kind of a contradiction. I thought you wanted to usher in the kingdom of God and yet you’re investing yourself so heavily into earthly things that it’s almost schizophrenic. So, when you hear them talk about these things, whether they’ll come right out and always mention Seven Mountains, you’re going find themselves trying so desperately to get into places like education – reclaiming these Seven Mountains, if you will.
And people can go ahead and do a search on the Internet for Seven Mountains, and you’re just going to see image after image after image of all these different groups that are explaining these seven mountains, and you’ll hear the people that are part of this talking about them all the time. Whether they address them as such, they’re going to be talking about what they’re doing in media, what they’re doing in religion. God TV is a great example of that. That’s one of the mountains they figure that we want to conquer. In fact, I’ll go even bigger than that. When I throw out things like TBN and Daystar, and all the channels that you can see on satellite or cable, they’re thinking, “We’re going to reclaim the airwaves for Jesus.” It’s just one of those Seven Mountains.
Tom: Chris, this has got to be a side note, because I can’t go down and develop it, but what I’m going to say now, folks, you can check our website, thebereancall.org, because we’ve addressed what I’m going to say right now.
You see, on the one hand, you’d say, “Well, you know, those are those charismatics and Pentecostals and hyper…whatever you want to call them…” Wait a minute. Back in the eighties, there was a movement among the conservatives, actually the Calvinists – it was called Christian Reconstructionism or Theonomy. And the whole idea – most Calvinists or reformed theologians are amilliennialists. They believe we’re in the Millennium. And the very thing that Chris just articulated, there was an approach by these many Calvinists of reclaiming, restoring, the earth. How? By imposing – and I have to say “imposing” - the Law. They were…that’s why they’re called theonomists. They were going to impose the Law – but they had to get into a position of it. So they were going to do it politically. So you had Coalition on Revival back when we had people like Pat Robertson running for president, and all of this. Just as you said, Chris, “we” were going to take over government and so on. Folks, that was not the hyper-charismatic or Pentecostals. That was the conservative reformed theologians and Calvinists. So, again, I’ll just put it aside here, but I just want to explain that this isn’t just some closed group, you know, some wild-eyed folks. As a matter of fact, I remember one of the leaders among the Reconstructionists, Gary North, his father-in-law was Rousas Rushdoony – they were the ones behind this and promoted it the most, and they said, “We’re going to work with the charismatics because they have the media, and they have the money, but we have the minds.” In other words, “We have the intellect.” I mean, talk about arrogance, but that’s the way that went down.
Now, Chris, I want to move on to those who primarily are attracted to this. I would say, as I said earlier, anyone who is not a Berean, who is not checking things out by the Word of God – but here’s my concern: Bethel Church and its School of Supernatural Ministry. One of the main, main camps, as it were, in all this; IHOP, the International House of Prayer – certainly a major force within this movement. Chris, they attract young people. Why? How is that?
Chris: First, music.
Chris: That would be the first, primary way to do it, and I think it’s two different things. You look at young people. What do they like the most? Music and something that’s flashy and edgy like they haven’t seen before. Interestingly enough, that was what…I’m a pastor of a Calvary Chapel, and people will say, “Well, isn’t that what Chuck did in the late sixties, early seventies? I mean, a bunch of hippies listening to rock music and the flash and all the rest of that.” And I would say that the difference was that once you got past all of that stuff – Chuck did not look like a hippy. He didn’t look like one at all. And he didn’t play the music. They got the guys in, and they were preaching the gospel to them, but then they would shove them over to Chuck and he would teach them the Bible. And that’s when the roots went down deeply, and he would want them, as you’ve used the phrase over and over, to be Bereans from Acts 17 – that idea that they would hear everything with readiness of heart but then they would check it against the Scripture to see that those things were so.
And Chuck was that guy. Now what we have in this, and whether it’s IHOP or it’s the Jesus Culture people coming out of Bethel – they’re writing music that the kids love. I mean, a lot of very conservative churches are singing Jesus Culture music. Interestingly enough, if you know what their view of the end times is, or eschatology, their music reflects that, if you know how to read lyrics.
Tom: Without a doubt.
Chris: That’s what’s an interesting thing. They actually believe, if you listen to Mike Bickel – I have video clips that I use when I’m talking about this, but Bickel basically says, “We’ve got to set up these worship centers based upon Psalm 132, like it was in the temple, and Jesus can’t return until we do this.” So, music is a huge, huge, huge focus. And then it’s backed up by the dazzling signs and wonders, glitzy, glam kind of things, and at that point, you’ve got their attention.
Tom: Yeah, and, as you said, if our young people, or young people, per se, don’t know the Word of God, if they’re not Bible students – I’m not talking about intellects; I’m talking about a young man or a young woman who loves the Word is God and is willing to hold that up as his reference to whatever is going on there. As you said, be a Berean.
But, Chris, there’s another part of this that attracts them. You’re absolutely right. Folks, if you’re concerned about what Chris said, you know – ordinarily I wouldn’t recommend this, but if you’re concerned, it may mean that you’re interested in Hillsong United or Jesus Culture. Listen to the lyrics! This is Kingdom-Dominionism! And they make no bones about it. Go to their website. You can see [that] this is their eschatology and their theology. That’s a problem.
But I remember watching a concert – that’s what I have to call it. It was like a rock concert, but it was at the Georgia Dome. You had 65,000 young people in their twenties. Sixy-five thousand! And if you turned off the sound, or if you turned off the sound to a Jesus Culture concert, you’d say, “This is a rock concert.” There’s no way around it. What’s my point here? It is the emotional, the experiential, that is attracting these young people. Sure, it’s music, but what does music do? It affects your emotions and so on.
So, that’s a part of it. And then, Chris, as you mentioned, and you can see it, folks, in the DVD that we offer, Wide Is the Gate, that features Chris and others, and take a look at the experiential aspect of this, and that’s what draws and attracts them. But sadly, it’s leading them away from – at least away from - the Word of God and into stuff that, you know. It’s doctrines of demons without a doubt.
Chris: No question. And the people around the church – I’ll be honest with you. If I had the gift of music and I was able to sing and play and write my own music, I’ll guarantee you this: my eschatology, my theology, my doctrinal views, they would come through in my music - no question about it. What else would I want to sing about other than what I believe? So if you don’t think that that works conversely with these people that we’re talking about - and they will be open about it. They’ll tell you flat out that the music that we do, it is a means to an end. It is establishing their … –like with Bethel and the Jesus Culture, they believe that as they sing – it’s why sometimes you see these manifestations: they’ll talk about glory clouds and glitter, or gold dust, falling from the ceiling, and all that kind of stuff, they will say it’s because they are manifesting the kingdom of God on earth as they play the music. That’s their eschatology! And it shows in their music, and they will be right upfront and tell you that, but if people don’t even know how to hear the words that they’re saying and parse through it, they’re just going along with it.
Tom: Chris, you just mentioned the word eschatology. In our first program we talked about what was the goal and the objective of the NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation, and we’ve been saying over and over, last week and most of our session today, we’ve been saying they are trying to take dominion over the earth: that they’re going to bring back a restoration, and certainly you hear, whether it be Rodney Howard-Browne or others, they’re all talking about revival, that God is doing a new thing, and he’s going to bring heaven on earth, and so on. Now, Chris, just start with the Rapture of the church, all right? And then give us what takes place starting with the Rapture. Just give us the events that take place. Because…I want you to lay this out, and I want folks to hear – see if they can hear anything about revival in what you’re going to tell us. So go ahead. Start with…maybe some don’t know what the Rapture is. Give us a brief definition and start from there.
Chris: Sure. Well, briefly, it is my view that as we look at the book of Revelation, it has a series of judgments, and they begin at chapter 6 of the book of Revelation and they culminate with Jesus coming back physically to the Earth in chapter 19. It’s that interval of the chapters 6-19 that is what we call the Tribulation – seven years that are spelled out and it’s God judging the Earth, the unrepentant. And what I believe personally is there is the Rapture of the church that takes place – some people disagree on when it happens: does it happen at the beginning, the middle, or the end? Mike Bickel would tell you that the church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, and it’s because they subdue the earth; they conquer the Earth. I’m of the opinion that when the Lord returns, there’s not much of a church left. A lot of people call themselves Christians, but they have no understanding of even what it takes to escape the judgment that is coming – being born again.
So, I believe that the Rapture happens at the beginning of that seven years. And then seven years happen, and Jesus returns at the end of those seven years to establish a thousand years of a kingdom, or what they call the Millennial Kingdom, and then it is followed by the forever Kingdom once He finally puts Satan down once and for all. So that’s the quickest way I can explain it. Hopefully that met what you’re looking for.
Tom: Oh, absolutely. You see, folks, the reason I wanted Chris to explain that, and simply, you can! Because it’s not secret! This is not a mystery that this is going to take place. It doesn’t come by extra-biblical revelation. God lays it out very clearly that Jesus is going to return for His Bride – remove His Bride from this earth. You know, Corinthians – it’s just spelled out; Thessalonians. The Rapture is a doctrine. It is a clear doctrine from the Scriptures. So, once the church is removed, it’s basically, God is going to bring about His judgment on the earth, His wrath. Chris pointed to Revelation. You can’t read through the book of Revelation from chapter…actually, you could probably start with chapter 4 and go on – all of that dealing with what will take place. And again, Chris, I mentioned people like…I know this an aside…people who are trying to build the kingdom. Well, the kingdom that they’re building has to go through...that they’re building, claim to be building, you know, whether it be a Rick Warren with his Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan, or somebody within this Kingdom-Dominion Movement – this kingdom that they’re building has to go through the seven years of Tribulation in which God is pouring out His wrath on the earth. Now, where’s a revival in that, Chris? Have you seen it?
Chris: Exactly! Here’s one of the things I…I almost fell out of my chair the first time I heard him say it. We’ve mentioned Mike Bickel and the International House of Prayer (I almost said “Pancakes”). When I first heard him say it, I couldn't believe it, but at one of his conferences, and he’s being interviewed by one of the guys that serves in ministry there. And the guy was just patting Mike Bickel on the back for something that he had said about the Book of Revelation. And here’s the way he described it. Mike Bickel said this, and this guy who works for him was just talking about how profound and brilliant of a truth it is: that the Book of Revelation is really just a prayer manual for the church going through the Tribulation. And as I heard him say that, I thought, “What book are you reading!” My gosh, that is just an insane thing to say! And so, when I heard that, I thought, This is explaining so much their eschatology, because so much of what they see in the Book of Revelation is symbolic.
But I think when Jesus made mention, “When the Son of man returns, will He find faith on the earth?” I believe that deception – interestingly enough, when we look at a very much “end-times” chapter, Matthew 24, people always love to look at those “earthquakes, famines,” and all that stuff, but the first thing that Jesus warns about in Matthew 24 is deception. And I believe that the church is in the throes of incredible deception. We hear people talk all the time. “Oh, yeah, the end-times church, the church of Laodicea, the apostate church,” and I think, “You’re not reading the text correctly. The problem with Laodicea wasn’t apostasy. It was apathy and indifference. But as I watch the New Apostolic people, I don’t think that they’re indifferent toward what they’re seeing. Their indifference and their apathy is toward the Word of God and not the outward things that they speak. Their apathy is based upon the Scriptures.
Tom: Now, Chris, we’ve got about a couple of minutes here, so here’s my question: What’s the antidote? What is the prevention program to help believers? Now, look, we know what will happen collectively. But individually, it’s like people say, “Well, we can’t proselytize the Jews because of what the Bible says.” No. The Bible is talking about the Jews collectively, but individually they can be saved, okay? The same with this. That this may be moving in a direction – God says! This is the apostasy. It’s happening. It’s taking place. But people can be rescued from this. So, that’s my question. What’s the basis…what’s the prevention program? What’s the antidote to help them grow in discernment and not be seduced by this New Apostolic Reformation and all of its alliances?
Chris: We've already mentioned it – that idea of being a Berean. And let me just make sure I…I’ll make it as simple as I can possibly make it. We shouldn’t believe anything that we hear, and I don’t care who it is that says it to you. It could be your mother that says it to you. If you cannot prove it emphatically through the Word of God, then it cannot be valid! So people will disagree on finer points of some doctrinal things, this, that, or the other. This is no such matter. We’re talking about people who are saying that they’re speaking reality into existence and that they have an authority that has not been seen since the apostles and is actually in excess of that. You cannot prove that through the Scripture. In fact, the Scripture would argue against such a mentality. So the antidote to bad doctrine of any stripe is the Word of God. It is the final authority. It was in print before these people showed up.
Tom: Yeah, that’s it. The B-I-B-L-E. And, you know, again, just leaving us with this note, look: there have been…we’ve been talking about the abuses of the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, of the Word of God and so on. Now my concern is for those who have bought into that. But my other concern is for those who overreact to it and remove themselves or draw back from the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. We’ve got to have a balance here. The Word of God gives it. It lays it out very clearly. “Not by might, nor by power, but by God’s Spirit.” God has given us the gifts to, I believe, help us not just to grow in the faith, but to strengthen us, to equip us, to do all these things. So, if you’re listening to this and saying, “Well, these guys are pushing against the work of the Holy Spirit,” absolutely not. We have been dealing with the abuses and how it has captured many millions into a false eschatology, a false theology, a false practice. It’s not of the Word of God. So that’s our encouragement. The B-I-B-L-E, folks. We encourage you to get into it daily. Daily!
Well, Chris, our time’s up. So, I really thank you for getting into this discussion with me. And, the Lord willing, it will speak to people’s hearts and minds.
Chris: Always a joy, my brother. I agree with you in that prayer, my friend. Thank you so much.
Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7with T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at 800-937-6638. Or visit our website at thebereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for joining us, and we hope you can tune in again next week. Until then, we encourage you to search the Scriptures 24/7.