Tom: Welcome to Apostasy Update. I’m T. A. McMahon, and in this program we’re addressing biblical eschatology—what the Bible has to say prophetically about the last days prior to the return of Jesus Christ. My partner in this discussion is Carl Teichrib. He’s the author of Game of Gods: The Temple of Man in the Age of Reenchantment.” Carl, welcome back, and thanks for joining me in our ongoing discussions of where the world and Christendom are headed, according to the scriptures, as history draws to a close.
Carl: Thanks, Tom. This is going to be another interesting conversation, no doubt about it.
Tom: I think so. And, folks, if you’ve joined us for the first time, much of the material that we’ve been talking about has to do with—well, it’s taken from four books: your book, Carl, Game of Gods; America, the Sorcerer’s New Apprentice, Christianity and Anti-Christianity in Their Final Conflict, and, most importantly, the Bible, which is God’s direct communication to mankind.
We’re picking up where we left off last week, discussing shamanism—real shamanism, as it has been and is practiced around the world primarily, but not exclusively, by indigenous people groups and has been carried out for thousands of years, and we’ve contrasted that with today’s psychologized shamanism. What’s the difference? Very simply, it’s an attempt to translate the communication with their communication with spirit entities, which is what shamanism has practiced historically all over the world.
Now, however, that practice is being psychologized—that is, it’s being described in pseudo-scientific terminology, concepts that have nothing to do with real science or real shamanism. Psychotherapy, which pretends to be scientific, has to keep that inflated and very false image, so it’s doing a scientific makeover—a scientific makeover of ancient shamanism. So, actual spirits and demons are out; manifestations of the psyche, the unconscious, altered states of consciousness, the collective unconscious, and higher consciousness are in.
Here is, I think, the demonic influence of what’s taking place. On one hand, it is a denial of the demonic realm. On the other hand, it is an acceptance of demonic manifestations without recognizing the inherent that’s involved.
Now, Carl, we talked about this a little bit last week. What do you think?
Carl: The connections that you’re drawing are important for people to realize. We’re living in an age when spirituality is “in,” along with the desire for finding the “higher self,” to go within, looking inwardly now, for the answers. To hear that voice, that inner voice within one’s self, and we’re at a time right now, Tom, where we see the blending of humanism, spirituality, coming together, and making the claim that there is no higher authority than yourself. The danger becomes this: when you’re searching for truth internally, what else is manifesting? What else, from a biblical point of view, is coming forward.
Well, we certainly have been talking about the doctrines of demons, and if you take a look at channeled writing, take a look at the work of shamanism, if you take a look at, even, let’s say the channeled writing of so-called alien visitor, it always points away from the true God and points to self, or to nature—that is where we “find the answers.” And that is very problematic from a biblical worldview. Not only that, I see this as a manifestation—a higher manifestation—of, you could call it that supernatural connecting point between the world of the demonic, including the worldviews being presented, and a culture now absolutely enamored with occult, New Age, esoteric concepts. I see the West opening the door—opening the door through psychology, opening the door through entertainment, opening the door in so many ways while we are searching for “spirituality” to open the door to something that truly is spiritual but certainly isn’t beneficial.
Tom: Right. Carl, I’m not big fan of C. S. Lewis, but he had an insight about the demonic sphere of influence that I think was amazing. Now, here’s a quote of his that Dave and I used in America, the Sorcerer’s New Apprentice. It has to do with the head demon discussing the problem demons have with their work of seducing mankind. I’m quoting: “We demons are really faced with a cruel dilemma. When the humans disbelieve in our existence, we lose all the pleasing results of direct terrorism, and we make no magicians. On the other hand, when they believe in us, we cannot make them materialists and skeptics, at least not yet. I have hopes that we shall [remember, this is the head demon talking to his underlings], that we shall learn in due time how to emotionalize and mythologize their science to such an extent that what is in effect a belief in us, though not under that name—[hey, we could throw in the name of psychotherapy, transhumanism, all of that stuff]—will creep in while the human mind remains closed to belief in the enemy [that is God]. If once we can produce our perfect work, the materialist magician, the man, not using but invariably worshiping what he vaguely calls ‘forces,’ while denying the existence of “spirits,” then the end of our war will be in sight.”
What do you think? Was that an insight, or what?
Carl: Absolutely! Tom, when you were giving that quote, it sounds like today! It sounds like we are in that crossover period between that materialist worldview, that secularist worldview, and the age of interest in spiritual beings. And then, how that becomes manifest within a culture. I remember going into bookstores, Tom, back in the early-to-mid-1990s, when I was engaged in the early phases of my own research work, trying to understand the New Age, trying to understand occultism, and finding it sometimes difficult to obtain books. There were time that you’d walk into the bookstore, and the shelf was quite small, especially part of the early 1990s. By the last part of the 1990s, it wasn’t hard to obtain New Age or occult material at all, because now there were racks and racks and rows of it.
And that just showed me the culture shift—that spiritual shift away from the materialist worldview to a supernatural worldview. But now a supernatural view in the biblical sense, but a sense of spirituality—I use a term “secular spirituality,” in my book—or you could c all it “re-enchantment.”
Allow me to read another quote (this is a quote from a different book—I think you might recognize this quote, Tom): “With a healthy fear of evil spirits neatly debunked by psychologists, the barrier that has kept so many people from involvement with the powers of darkness is now gone. There is no longer anything to be afraid of, for nothing is there except fragments of one’s own personality—so goes the refrain. All that is now needed is to accept a new understanding. Unfortunately, that understanding begins with a denial of evidence and is concerned not with truth but with a dogmatic claim of the new religion of psychology that it alone is the true faith of humanity. We now stand in grave danger that psychology’s glib but pseudoscientific explanations of spiritual power are increasing opening the West to the very phenomenon psychologist have sought so long to deny—demonic possession.”
That’s why I call this one of Satan’s ingenious devices. And it’s only within the last hundred years—or a little less—that this has come on. Not only in the world: Freud, Jung, Maslow, you know, we’ve named these individual—but also in the church. The fact that’s it’s coming to the church is…it’s tragic! But there it is.
You know, the other thing—last…when we were talking about shamanism, and what we’ve quoted and what we’ve mentioned earlier, how is this moving in? Well, you can get an advance degree—a doctorate in shamanism—in many of the medical fields, as you mentioned, I think, last week, many in the medical field are taking shamanic courses for continuing education credits. But this is psychologized shamanism. This isn’t the ancient real shamanism.
And, of course, the title of these programs, “Transpersonal Psychology,” and it’s little more than the beliefs and practices of shamanism shrouded in scientific-sounding language. You know, there’s an irony there, Carl. It’s kind of like the classic case of the kettle calling the pot black. In other words, the so-called science view—pseudo-science view—is that, no, “these are superstitious people, the days of old. We’re going to bring it up to our intellect, our education, and so on.” And you know, hopefully, folks, if you’ve looked into this, psychotherapy—it’s not science at all. It’s just what men make up: Freud, Jung—look at their lives! Look at the concepts that they’ve come up with. I think we’ve mentioned in the past that Philemon, who was the spirit guide for Carl Jung. At the beginning he said, “Oh, no, this was a manifestation. This was out of my unconscious” and so on.
But in the later years, he said, “No, this was a real person.” In other words, it was so distinct from him, he couldn’t fall back on that. And, of course, you know, at the end of his life, maybe he was trying to come clean on some of this, because it was basically a fraud at the beginning. So, in other words, it’s the false science of psychotherapy attempting to add credibility to what shamans have practiced for thousands of years. How? By reinterpreting these so-called superstitious beliefs and activities in the pseudo-scientific language of psychology.
Last week—I love this—I was thinking, Wait a minute! Where did these people who were into this, trying to get a doctorate or whatever it might be, in transpersonal psychology, which is also called “spirit psychology.” How about that one? Carl, I asked you last week, “Where did they learn about spirits,” okay? And then I said, “Well, maybe it was a graduate course that they took at Esalen.” And you quoted from the curriculum, right?
Tom: I mean, folks, we’re laughing on the outside, but we’re crying on the inside. We’re laughing because this is the theater of the absurd, but we, that is the world, hopefully not believes, but the world has bought into this—swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker.
Carl: I’m glad you brought up Carl Jung again, because what I find interesting, in terms of his background, he recognized—at one point, he recognized that it was those mundane real-world tangible relationships: his own household, his day-to-day reality that was keeping him tethered to sanity, because the unconscious was taking him into the realm of insanity. The very thing that he was looking towards as being our salvation—finding our higher selves in the unconscious, especially in the collective unconscious, it’s group think, group feel—at one point, or at some point, he recognized the danger that he himself was in, as he was moving into the world of going insane, and that he had to find some grounding in the reality around him that was outside of his unconscious, in his conscious, working environment. I find that very ironic. You have to cling to what’s tangible to make sure that you don’t go nuts, literally, in the “search for meaning” in the intangible.
Tom: you know, a little side note to that: I was in Zurich, Switzerland—I mentioned last week that I did a speaking tour from Vienna, so I visited the Freud museum; and now I’m in…then I left there and went to Switzerland, to Zurich. And I thought it would be interesting to be able to figure out where Carl Jung lived. You know how I got his address? When he thought he was going nuts, he would repeat over and over—in other words, his “higher self,” okay—his higher consciousness made him go nuts, so the only way he could bring himself back to reality was to repeat some things that were commonsense, that were consciousness—not unconsciousness. And would repeat, “My name if Carl Gustav Jung. I have a degree from this and that…” you know, he gave that… “I live at 222…” and then he gave his address. And I thought, “It would be interesting to check out this address.” I show up at his house, okay? Anyway, some of his relatives are there. They were very nice. But I thought, Look, if you have to do this, why are you pushing that other stuff on humanity? You know, it’s a fraud, it’s grievous to the extent….
The other thing I was thinking about as you were talking, I want to mention you can earn a doctorate in transpersonal psychology. Here’s one of the…here’s what the course says, or the curriculum…to introduce the curriculum. It says, “The discipline (of transpersonal psychology) attempts to describe and integrate spiritual experience within modern psychological theory.” I need to repeat that: “…integrate spiritual experience within modern psychological theory.” Folks, if you’ve been paying attention to this, if you’ve checked out our other programs, this is exactly what it’s about, and it’s a fraud. But again, I asked the question: “So, what psychology courses does one take to learn about spirituality?” There are no instruments. You can’t put it out there on a scientific basis. But that’s the deal.
Carl, I want to hear comments from you, and then I want to read from the article that you sent me, okay? Written by someone pursuing a degree in shamanism…. No, let me do it first, and then I want to hear your comments.
I got this from Carl, folks. He didn’t think I had enough to read. Listen to this: “Jung is describing the therapist’s shamanlike function of taking on, having it out with, as well as taking within themselves the demon of sickness from which the patient is suffering. Once the underlying spirit and dynamic of the illness is transmitted and transferred via the act of transference to the therapist, this evokes unconscious reactions and projections, the counter-tranference, withing the therapist’s unconscious.” By the way (this is my comment), the demon of sickness and the underlying spirit of illness as they’re used in the article have nothing to do with a literal demon or spirit or a physical sickness.
Continuing: “Jung felt that the transference, counter-transference, was the crux, the most crucial part, the alpha and the omega of the therapeutic work. In essence, the transference-counter-transference is based on projections, the transference, that have an effect on the recipient, evoking counter-projections. Instead of unwittingly projecting onto the patient their countertransference reaction, the therapist, like a shaman, then has to deal with and assimilate within themselves the unconscious reactions triggered in them by counter-transference.
Now, any attempt at trying to understand the language and sense of that article is a guaranteed brain cramp. I mean, really? So, what do you think? Is that…does that say it all about what we’ve been talking about?
Carl: The bottom line is the therapist symbolically becomes a type of savior to the person who is being inflicted by whatever that spiritual mental or emotion disease may be.
Tom: See, real shamans deal with real demons.
Tom: Real spirits and real sicknesses. I can’t imagine—not just what I’ve quoted, but even some of the stuff that you’ve mentioned from Esalen. I can’t imagine a real shaman being there—and they did have real shamans there, and going off and thinking, What? What have I just heard?
Carl: But this is important, Tom, because this parallels with the East did in coming to the West in the 1960s or 1950s—up the early 1970s, where they came in, the eastern gurus from India, came to America—America was hungry. (I’m saying “America,” I mean “the west”) the west was hungry for a new form of spirituality. And so, real gurus, real followers of the Hindu faith, came forward, acting as guides for the culture. And it ended up taking upon itself a pseudoscientific framework, language; it became gobbly-goop, and everybody was buying it.
That’s kind of what I’m seeing shamanism doing. It’s acting in the same capacity, where you have real shamans coming in—real shamans, who are giving advice, direction, channeling new information (and that’s an important word—I chose that specifically), channeling new information from an outside-of-themselves source, and sometimes I believe it’s physically present inside themselves. And then it gets wrapped around a new language, a new sense of spiritual, psychological, scientific—it becomes grounded in that . It becomes grounded in what we would now claim to more normalized. And it’s sold to the West! And we buy it, because we’re hungry. We’re searching.
Tom: Isn’t this a form of the Emperor’s New Clothes?
Tom: The other part of it, which…I’m just a simple-minded guy, Carl, and this is not condescending on myself—this is the way I am, you know, as I mentioned. I’m just like a C-student, C-plus, somebody threw in the plus—I say that, because this is billboard stuff. This is stuff that—I’ve used the term “hidden in plain sight.” This is stuff that’s so obvious. So let’s just talk about the evangelists, the gurus, who came from India. I mean, you started talking about the Parliament of World Religions, and that influence. Why didn’t somebody stop and say, “Wait a minute! You’re bringing us some wonderful new information. Oh, by the way, how did that work in your country?” India. Okay, the most superstitious, the poorest, their religion has brought them nothing but, well, it’s samsara, the Wheel of Sorrows, all these things that took place, and are taking place today.
And we accept it in the United States with open arms? You know, a point that you made, which is I’m sure really true, you can see the burnout, so to speak, of materialism—I’m not talking about scientific materialism; I’m talking about all the goodies that we had. And where did that go? Well, during that time, what did young people decide to do? “Let’s go to India. Let’s go find ourselves!” Somehow, the spirituality that that turned off, okay? They wanted to replace it, and to replace it with, as I said, all these things that we are talking about. You know, you hate to give the adversary any credit, but, boy, I’m telling you, he’s come up with some things…and it doesn’t have to be that way, right, Carl?
In other words, we have the Word of God. We have, for true believers, those who will put their faith in Jesus Christ, those who have had their sins washed away by His blood—I’m using that in a figurative sense—that He has delivered us from bondage from all these things that man, without Him, they’re caught up in. So, we have the solution. God has given it to us. And it’s a free gift. You know, I came out of Roman Catholicism for… you know, 30 years I was a Roman Catholic. The idea that salvation is a free gift? No, man! You’ve gotta work for it. There are things you have to do, and so on. Really? Well, what’s the penalty for sin? Penalty for sin is death! So what am I going to do to overcome that, death meaning separation from God forever? How can I rework all those things and make it right?
I can’t! But He did, and He offers it to us, to everyone! So, the solution’s there.
Carl: But you know, when you reject the solution, you will continue searching for alternatives to that solution. And so, you’ll jump from one thing to the next. That what our culture has been doing. We have rejected, as a culture, as a civilization, the biblical answer, the biblical solution. At one point, the biblical answer at least formed the framework of our ethics and our morality. But that’s already being jettisoned. And so, when we push away the answer, which is Jesus Christ, we will look for other alternatives to fill the gap. And when that doesn’t work, we jump to the next one, or we jump after that to another one. We continue in a vicious circle, searching for some answer. Now, today, if you’re in Silicon Valley and you want to have a higher experience, you want to open up your creativity, and have a more direct spiritual encounter, you will fly to Peru and sit at the feet of a Peruvian shaman—and this…Tom, I’m taking this from the conversations I’m hearing when I go to places like Burning Man. And you will sit at the feet of a Peruvian shaman, and in your group (because it’s usually a group dynamic, or a group context) you will do an Aiawaska ceremony. You will drink the Aiawaska tea. You will go into an altered state of consciousness; you will encounter entities, and those entities will give you new information. They will be creative, and you will walk away going, “Oh, now, I’m enlightened. Now I have new knowledge.” And you’ll return back to Silicon Valley. You might even develop new products because of it. I mean, Steve Jobs even acknowledged the role of LSD in his creativity regarding his Apple products.
So, is shamanism a real thing today? Yeah! And as the culture rejects Jesus Christ, it will move down that road. And, Tom, when that’s done, they’ll find another spiritual alternative movement to follow. And it will keep going. It just builds on each other.
Tom: Sure, and here’s the drive, I think: “Wait a minute. What you’re talking about, Carl…what you and Tom have been talking about, that sounds like accountability to a personal God. Well, wait a minute. I’m the god of my own life. I’ll choose what I want to choose. I’ll work it out. And even if that didn’t work, I’m just repeating what you said, I[‘m gonna go here, I’m gonna go there, and so on….”
And I think we mentioned last week, if you went to India, to Poona, and you went to the Ashram of Rajneesh, Bhagwan, the god man, Rajneesh, there’s a sign at the door: “Leave your sandals and your mind at the door.” Now, wouldn’t that tell you something?
“Well, that’s important, because our mind, our conscious mind, is inferior to our subconscious and then to the broader collective unconscious. Could you explain to me exactly what those things are?”
No. Nobody can. And I can imagine (I can’t imagine) Philemon the demon talking to Carl Jung, giving him this counsel, and Carl saying to him, “Whoa! Wait a minute. Well, what about this? Or what about that?” Now, he bought into it because that was his life as you described earlier, dealing with demons.
Carl: You know, we will continue to chase…I’m looking for another quote and I couldn’t find it while you were talking, but we will continue to chase whatever new thing comes around—whatever new fad is out there. And I think, Tom, increasingly, we will find ourselves chasing the answer down the rabbit hole to where we experience spirituality face to face with spiritual beings. It’s already happening. Carl Jung was one example. There is a growing interest in things in the West that are directly spiritual. Not just simply in having a spiritual feeling, but having a direct spiritual encounter. I think at some point, doctrines of demons, which are worldviews that are antithetical to Jesus Christ; I think that that becomes even more powerfully manifested as the culture looks for some outside source, for some outside salvation, even though they claim that it’s internal. They recognize that it does come. There’s an outside perspective to it.
I think Carl Jung’s idea of UFOs (and I bought his book on UFOs)—he makes the argument that you… (I’m just giving you the Cole’s notes—or the Carl’s notes), UFO phenomena is our civilization’s collective unconsciousness projecting itself into this new realm. I think at some point, Tom, the supernatural, the spiritual, becomes more than just simply some type of pseudo-science. All of a sudden it comes face to face with reality,
Tom: I agree with you, but initially, there has to be the attraction, and the attraction—if it smacks of religion, if it smacks of spirituality that has to do with entities behind it, that doesn’t go down first, but inevitably, especially—what do we know about the last days?
The prophet of the antichrist—we’re talking signs and wonders. Not this showboat stuff that we see today by these false prophets and false teachers, psycho-sematic for the most part, maybe even demonic in many cases. No, no. That’s going to be overwhelming, as the scriptures teach. So, how do we protect ourselves? I think the only protection—not just my idea, but I know you agree with this, Carl—is the Word of God. First of all, that has to begin with a personal relationship with Him, and that only begins by submitting oneself to Him, claiming that you can’t save yourself; you need a Savior. And He, alone, is the Savior of the world. And with that comes the Holy Spirit to enable us to not only understand the Word of God, but then to live it out, to practice it, to do the things that will produce fruit in a person’s life.
Once again, sometimes when cultists come to my door, my first line is “So, what’s your deal?”
“Yeah, what’s your deal? I just want to know. You’re here to kind of sell me a deal, or give me a deal, or show me a deal, or whatever it is. And here’s my thing: If your deal is better than my deal, the deal that I have, then I want your deal.”
But, Carl, there is no better… I hate to put it in those crass terms, but that’s the reality. What God has provided us, man can’t make this up. This is way beyond our ability to even think—to comprehend all this stuff. But it’s true. It’s absolutely true.
So, folks, that’s…God save us, and He protects us, He keeps us, He uses us to His glory, and that’s what the temporal life needs to be all about. That’s what it is all about. That’s why He created us—to glorify Him and to be fruitful and productive in our lives.
Carl, I want to close off with this, but I want you to add to it. I mentioned earlier that actual spirits and demons, at least at this point (it’s going to change), but actual spirits and demons are out. Manifestations of the psyche, the unconscious, the altered states of consciousness, the collective unconscious, and higher consciousness, that’s in. Now, that’s an incredible destructive deception right there. But it’s a partial fulfillment of the strong delusion—the lie, as we find in 2 Thessalonians:2:11. It is a denial of the demonic realm, which, as you’ve been saying, opens the door to the acceptance of demonic manifestations without recognizing the inherent evil of the entities involved. You quoted…you used this scripture, let me quote the whole thing for our viewers: 1 Timothy:4:1: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.” That’s not figurative language, folks. That’s the reality as people buy into this more and more, and the pseudo-science part may blow away, but the reality is, seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
So, what do you think, Carl, we’ve got about two minutes. I think I’d like to leave the audience with a perspective, because I realize that this conversation was pretty heavy, especially when we’re talking about demonic entities. In my research, I sometimes go, as I may have alluded a number of times, to places that most people wouldn’t travel. Not Christians. And I remember last year attending a witchcraft conference, and seeing some of the rituals that were unfolding. And being told, the audience who were observing the ritual, we were being told what to expect in terms of a physical manifestation of a demonic entity. And the demons were specifically named, Tom. For the first ten minutes I was very uncomfortable, as I should be—as anybody should be. And it was about an hour-long ritual. But after about ten minutes—and again, remember, I’m observing for the purpose of research—the realization hit me again that every knee bows, every knee bows, every person, every sentient being, every knee will bow. That means everybody in that room, that means Carl Jung, that means Vivikanda, pointing through history, it means every spiritual being—every knee will bow. We bow now in love to the Maker of heaven and earth. And we can’t forget that, Tom. And in all this discussion, the God we serve is the Creator of the Universe. Don’t fear this. Be concerned. Be informed. And hold on tight to Jesus Christ because He is the anchor in the storms that we are now having to face.
Tom: Amen. Carl, as a former teacher, if you remember, I gave homework assignment last week, okay? And that was to go to The Berean Call website, and there was an article on there that I wrote in which I interviewed a real, a genuine shaman. And I think that will give you some insights into what this is really all about from somebody who was absolutely a terrific person to interview. The other aspect of…because you brought this up, he’s here in this country. And he’s at the time of Halloween. Now this is a man who interacted with spirit entities—the most horrific ones as well as supposedly the ones who were kind and all of that to help his people, and so on. So that was his life, interacting, communicating, and maybe communing with these spirit entities. He saw them here in this country, not just through Halloween and the masks and all of that stuff. But even on TV, so that’s a heads up. That’s just another underscoring of where this is going. But again, we leave you with this. The Lord knows this stuff. And He wants all of us to know it and to understand it and to do things His way. You do things God’s way, I guarantee it’s going to turn out really well. You do things your own way—Tom McMahon I’m talking about—and I can guarantee you, Tom, it’s not going to work. So He has provided all that we need through His Son and what His Son has done for us.
God bless you, Bro! And the Lord willing, we’ll get after this next… Oh! Next week, the Lord willing—hey, I’ve got this book. Have you seen this book before? What? We’re moving on to Game of Gods—The Temple of Man in the Age of Re-enchantment, Carl Teichrib. God bless you, Bro!
Carl: Looking forward to our conversation later on in the road.