Tom: Welcome to Apostasy Update. I’m T.A. McMahon, and in this program we are addressing biblical eschatology—what the Bible has to say prophetically about the last days prior to the return of Jesus Christ. My partner in this discussion is Carl Teichrib. He’s the author of Game of Gods: The Temple of Man in the Age of Re-enchantment.
Carl, welcome back, and thanks for joining me in our ongoing discussions of where the world and Christendom are headed according to the scriptures, as history draws to a close.
Carl: This is going to be an interesting conversation, Tom. I’m looking forward to it. Thanks for having me back on the program.
Tom: Sure! You know, much of the information that we’ve been presenting, hopefully, folks, if this is the first time you’ve tuned into the discussions that we’ve had, hopefully you’ll go back. We almost have 20-some programs along this line, and, folks, we think it’s really important stuff. And as I’ve said over the past, in the series, the information that we’re presenting is taken from four books: your book, Carl, Game of Gods; America, the Sorcerer’s New Apprentice; Christianity and Anti-Christianity in Their Final Conflict, and, most importantly, the Bible, which is God’s direct communication to mankind.
We’re now focusing on Carl Teichrib’s book, Game of Gods: The Temple of Man in the Age of Re-enchantment. Carl, last week, where we left off, we were addressing sorcery—primarily the increasing use of hallucinogenic drugs and their acceptance throughout the world, as the Bible prophesies! That’s to us—as we’ve been talking about this—it should be a wakeup call, because the Bible said this was going to take place: sorcery, in the last days, which we’ve identified.
We talked about the bills that were passed in November, ushering in the acceptance of hallucinogenic drugs in the U.S., and I mentioned that in my own state of Oregon, the decriminalization of hard drugs, such as cocaine, LSD, psilocybin, heroin, meth, DMT, and so forth, was voted into law. Therefore, I thought we would explain the issues we presented in our past discussions regarding how they are connected, and how they relate to each other, and what the end result will be.
You gave a terrific timeline over the last hundred years regarding the spiritual involvement related to psychedelic and hallucinogenic drugs, right up to their legalization in the US, which, I mentioned, took place recently.
Well, Carl, what I’d like to do now is, as much as we can—and, folks, we keep trying to…it’s complicated, but we keep trying to simplify this so everyone will get the gist of what’s going on.
So, I thought I’d make up some bullet points of information, and, Carl, as you see fit, if you’ll add some brief comments to these bullet points. Let’s start with shamanism. It’s the ancient process of contacting the world of spirits through drugs that open the door to that realm of an altered state of consciousness. And the process, as we’ve mentioned, is the same the world over, by people groups who have never had contact with one another, which indicates that the spirit entities, which they’re in contact with—which is what the whole process is about—are not restricted by geographical barriers, and they are the sources of the worldwide shamanic practices. What does that tell you?
Carl: It tells us, Tom—it tells us, really, that this is a spiritual war; that there is a spiritual reality, and that spiritual reality transcends cultures, generations, and it is fundamentally opposed to the biblical message that God is distinct and separate; that we’re sinners, and that Jesus Christ is the only way. Instead it draws together the idea that nature is divine, and that we can tap into these unseen divine spiritual forces.
It reminds me of the language that’s found in the New Testament about how in the latter times we’ll be encountering doctrines of demons. And when we read that passage, we typically tend to have our minds thinking about, you know, a worldview or counter-cult issues. But I think it goes deeper than that, Tom. I think it really—it emanates first in the realm of the mystical and the shamanistic, the psychedelic, the trans-state—all of these go back to the Greco-Roman times and before, and now has just simply been wrapped up—and wrapped up significantly, like, this is an unparalleled time in human history regarding the use and acceptance of psychedelics as a motivator for the masses to engage in a new spirituality.
Tom: You know, we have been using the term—and I sort of get this from America, the Sorcerer’s New Apprentice—that was a book in which Dave and I tried to get people to understand what’s going on here; so we didn’t jump at the first, to say, “Hey, this is demons!” but I think now, with all we’ve talked about, is we can stop using the word “the spiritual realm,” or “the realm of the world of spirits,” and so on. Folks, these are demons.
And, you know, we’re talking about shamanism—and I mentioned before, I even gave some homework for those who want to understand shamanism a little better, that I had an interview with a Yanamamo shaman (this was from…in Venezuela, and so on). They had no contact with people outside their tribes except for other tribes in that area, and so on, and asking the young man, “Well, how did this get started?” (I’m talking about the young man who became the shaman for his tribe.) He said, “Well, it started with hallucinogenic drugs,” and he didn’t mention what it was, but we talked about DMT, right? I mean, there was many hallucinogenic drugs, psychedelic drugs, that were available naturally, okay, for them to get into. So that’s how it started. And then it opened the world—the spiritual world, and so on. But the work of a shaman is to be a mediator between basically his tribe, and then, the spirit realm. And, again, we’re…I will say we’re talking about nonphysical entities, which are demons.
Now, why would I say “demons”? Now, Carl, we’ve talked about in the past, what’s the communication? Certainly, I’m talking about shamanism—again, this ancient process—but we have communication with demons across the board: everything from UFOs to…and so on. Why would I say this is demonic? What’s the information that they present, Carl?
Carl: The information…the information is almost always the same, Tom. It is “You are divine. You’ve just forgotten your way to your own godhood. You are divine.” That is the constant and consistent message that you see, whether it’s through UFO contactees, the message of aliens, or it is the entities that speak through psychedelics, or it is the channeled messages that come through—it’s always “You are divine,” “You are god.” It’s also, we have to “go green,” we have to become more environmental, and we have to become more socialistic and more international, and more global. Hmm. Really?
Tom, this is the consistent message—messages! Genesis chapter 3. “You are divine. We will help you progress to become enlightened, and now, build your Babel.” That’s what it does.
Tom: Exactly. So, going back to the process of shamanism—it hasn’t changed. Now we’re trying to ante it up by making it more “scientific,” okay? No! That doesn’t work.
Carl: And not just more scientific, Tom. Now, acceptable and accessible to the public! Anybody now can become a shaman! Just take this sacrament; take this medicine; take this new plant visionary message that comes from ingesting a psychedelic—some type of “plant spirituality.” That’s the language they use!
Allow me to read just a short quote. This is from a book called The Electric Jesus, written by a young man who wandered off, searching for gnostic wisdom, and he searched for it through the “Rave scene,” he searched for it through Burning Man, he searched for it throughout specifically the experience of psychedelics—this is what he’s writing as he has now experienced an entity coming to him in an Ayahuasca DMT trance: “Out of the dust I saw a snake-human rise on an invisible throne. It had yellow eyes and a sole flickering red tongue. Its scales boasted a complicated diamond pattern that looked futuristically alien and synthetic. A powerful white light emanated from every pore. His gaze struck me as sophisticated, telepathic, and full of Buddha-like compassion. This snake-man was a coming together of nature and technology after a ten-thousand-year schism and enlightened non-dualistic synthesis.”
Here’s the quote from this entity: “This represents [the way] you humans are evolving,” the voice announced, “toward something beyond your wildest 3-dimensional imaginations.”
Tom, this the type of material—this is the type of information that’s coming through. I’m sorry, that sounds very much like the antibiblical message and the posturing that is found in the demonic realm that we see through our biblical worldview.
Tom: Well, let’s go back to Genesis 3: wasn’t there a serpent involved? Connection? And it’s interesting, because according to the scripture, the serpent—this is Satan, speaking through this animal. So it’s the bad guy. It’s the devil. It’s a demon.
But now, as we hear from all of these different entities, through these different ways and means, and so on, the serpent is actually the good guy! A good guy! And they have “the truth.”
Carl: In the realm of this literature, the messaging that comes through, Yahweh is vindictive and jealous, and Lucifer, Satan, the devil, the “angel” of Genesis 3 that comes masquerading as a serpent, comes as in a snakelike personification, offers you the opposite. He offers you the freedom of enlightenment. That’s the twist—God is vindictive and jealous; Lucifer offers enlightenment and freedom. Choose which path you want to follow. Do you stay under the bonds of God, who said, “Don’t eat,” or do you transgress and therefore transform through “new enlightment.”
And it’s the same message, Tom. It’s the same message that comes through, whether it’s from the realm of spiritual psychedelics or alien encounters, the New Age Movement, the Human Potential Movement—it’s all saying the same thing but just in diverse ways.
Tom: Right. Going back to the interview I had with this Yanomamo shaman, it’s absolutely fascinating. I’m so blessed that the Lord opened that opportunity to me. So, I pursued it. I said, “So, now you’re in contact with these spirit entities.” Just to keep the edge off, we won’t call them “demons” just yet, because I didn’t do that with him. But I said, “So how did that work?”
And he said, “Well…”
“And how did you have a change of heart and mind, or an understanding about who you were communicating with?”
He said, “Well, the first thing I came to understand was that they were lying to me! And the things that they communicated to me, they caused us nothing but trouble. For example, if supposedly, as a shaman, I’m involved in healing, but sometimes it didn’t work. And when I would communicate to these spirit entities, he said, ‘Well, it’s not your fault. There…it’s another tribe, okay? They are putting curses on your tribe,’” and so on.
So, out of that would come wars between these different tribes—they would fight each other, and so on, and because they were the ones that were keeping the so-called “blessing” from these spirit entities to be effective, and so on.
And then, “The more I communicated with them, the more I could see they were lying. They are absolutely lying to me.”
And I asked him about…oh, they would say, “Yai Pada,” in other words, there was a higher spirit than themselves, but Yai Pad “you don’t want to go with Yai Pada. He’s bad news,” and so on and so forth. “But I knew they were bad news.”
Again, the lies, the issues, with regard to what was going on moved him away to search for the truth about this, and so on. Well, again, whatever the device may be—UFOs—I mean, it doesn’t even have to be the drug issue. You know, back in my youth, the Parker game, Ouija Board, was a popular thing. But a lot of problems came out of that. Not every time and in every case, but it was…and, again, more communication with these entities out there who were working—the planchette, and all of that stuff.
So, again, shamanism—contacting the spirit world, which is the world of demons—and sometimes they come on like righteous, and so on. Deceiving, in any case. But bottom line, it ends up being bad news—serious bad news. Demon oppression, at least, and, in many cases, demon possession. That’s what we’re talking about, folks.
You know, the other bullet point, Carl, and to move onto it, an altered state of consciousness: well, it’s a state of mind which opens one to the nonphysical realm. An altered state of consciousness is reached primarily, we mentioned, through drugs, but it can be attained through various nondrug devices and techniques—Eastern Meditation, yoga, sensory deprivation, Sufisim, Holotropic Breathing, and we could go on and on. So, it’s not the only way, and in some cases, Dave Hunt used to say the drugs are the primer—not the primer, but the primary school for it, and so on. But there are all kinds of other ways to move into this realm, and so on. And, again, it’s demonic.
So, Altered States of Consciousness. You gave us a litany of, last week, Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, another one of his associates at Harvard and so on. But, Carl, what’s wrong with a normal state of consciousness? Why is an altered state so much better? Come on, help me with this!
Carl: You know, it’s an interesting area of human study, because we are enamored with going into an altered state, whether it’s through over-abuse of alcohol, or through the pornography industry, the entertainment industry—we’re always looking for an escape, aren’t we? We’re always looking for some other sense of reality. And there’s always within us a knowledge or an understanding that there’s more to reality, there’s more to life, than just simply the flesh, the material around us.
And so, the pursuit of the altered state is a multibillion-dollar pursuit when you take all things into consideration. It is an enormously expensive, an enormously powerful economic driver because we’re hungry for something more.
We at one time had a…I would look at—and this might be controversial to some ears, but before our fall, we had a heightened state. We were in communion with God! Adam and Eve were in direct communion with God. There was a higher—you could call it a “higher consciousness,” but at the very least it was a far more open understanding, a conscious real experience with God, and in a spiritual and physical manifestation. Whereas for us now? We’ve lost that. We’ve severed that. There’s a hunger, there is a drive, a thirst, to try to find that to fill it with something. We’re not willing to fill it with God, because we rejected Him. But that thirst, that hunger, is still there.
So, the altered state? It is the pursuit of humanity to find Nirvana; to build heaven on earth, even if it’s only in our minds. And that’s a dangerous place to go!
Tom: Yeah. Again, going through the whole New Age Movement, you pull back and take a look at it, and you say, “Well, wait a minute. That generation was totally into materialism, and it didn’t satisfy. Like anything else could satisfy outside of Jesus Christ, okay? But having said that, so, it created a vacuum. And now, as you’ve pointed out, a search for what would please, what would edify, and so on, they moved into the Lie. The whole—we talked about the perennial wisdom, we talked about Eastern Mysticism, and so on, last week.
You’d think—well, again, in my generation, they were going off to India to “find themselves.” You know, I think I mentioned this before: Rajneesh, who is the guru who set up camp here in Central Oregon in his ashram. He had a sign outside of his ashram, and it said (this is back in India, in Poonah), the sign said, “Leave your sandals and your mind at the door.”
Now why would that attract somebody?
Carl: I know!
Tom: Well, I’ll tell you why, because common consciousness, you know, common sense and consciousness, that has to take a back seat to something that’s more attractive. It’s a lie!
Carl: But you’re right. And we’re going to look to fill it, aren’t we? I’m going to hold up a poster talking about trying to fulfill something. This is the Fairy Human Congress. You don’t have to go to India. You don’t have to go to Stonehenge. You just need to go to the Fairy Human Congress, which takes place in the state of Washington, straight north of you, Tom!
It takes place in North Central Washington, and it is a gathering—and, by the way, this is an annual gathering. It’s been going on for quite some time!—so that you can have communion with fairies and nature spirits; communion with divas, communion with seers, communion with the spiritual world; but indeed, the picture at the bottom is, you’ve got people in communion—in the ritualistic communion—going around a fire.
I picked this up when I was at PantheaCon, the gathering of witches and wiccans that took place in San Jose back in February before things got locked down. It’s an understanding that there is a communion that’s being sought after. It’s not just simply looking for an altered state. It’s looking for an altered reality. It’s looking for that reconnection to something spiritual. And the world is hungry for it.
And when we see in Scripture, it talks about in a latter day, that people will be deceived by doctrines of demons. Well, you know, we’re in a point right now, Tom, in our history, where the doctrine of demons becomes literally the dominant worldview that’s feeding into our culture, and that is that we can be one. We can be one with the spiritual world, we can be one with the natural world, we can be one with the Divine.
We’re playing out Genesis chapter three.
Tom: You know, as we pointed out last week, certainly, scripture talks about the doctrines of demons, and it’s out there, and so on. But based on what we brought forth last week, now we’re talking about the demons themselves! We’re talking about at least oppression, which I mentioned before—but demon possession! Carl, when our Lord walked this earth, coming the first time, you know, you read, particularly in the gospel of Mark, but also in the gospels and Matthew, and so on, demon possession—over and over and over again. And Jesus had to deal with it. What’s changed? He’s…I believe Jesus is at the door! He…I think we’re close to His return, and so on. But what about all this demon possession? How come we’re not talking about it, or recognizing it? It’s a major issue, obviously. Most of the gospels deal with it…and critical issues that have to be dealt with. Why are we not dealing with it today?
Carl: I think, Tom, that we are in point in our history when the demonic…demonic activity, and certainly demonic teachings, has been on the increase. And on the rapid increase! When Jesus walked the earth 2,000 years ago, it was full-on spiritual warfare. We see, in the New Testament, over and over again, encounters with people who are possessed. As we come to a close in terms of history, and Jesus’s second return, should we not expect to see some type of amplification? Or at least a renewed interest in the very spiritual demonic world that plagued the early church in the New Testament? Should we not see some kind of a correlation? I think we will! I think we’re starting to see that right now!
Tom: Well, the problem with seeing it is there’s been a blanket thrown over it. It’s called psychology. It’s called science. When you don’t believe in the spiritual realm, you can’t identify this for what it is. You talk to some policemen—I think back to when “angel dust” was one of the ongoing drugs of the day. You could find four or five physically able policemen trying to subdue a teenager who had power…I mean, you ask them to explain it! This is not some psychological idea. This is a reality. This is demon possession through the use of drugs and so on.
Now, I know that part of the problem within the church is you have deliverance ministries, and sadly, they’re trying to deliver a demon out of a picture or something in your house. They come over and have some kind of a “session” there, and so on. But I’m talking about the reality that you just pointed to. Jesus is going to return; these things are going to manifest more, but the problem is they can’t see it, because, again, those who are “in the know,” the scientists and so on, the psychologists and so on, say, “No. It can’t be that.” Obviously because they don’t believe in that. But that is the reality, and that’s a concern that we have. Am I looking to apply what the Word of God says when you’re confronted with a situation in which this is taking place? By the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God, by God’s instructions, we need to deal with it. And we don’t just do it carte blanche. There’s times to do it and times not, but nobody wants to go there. It’s a tough call.
Carl: It is a tough thing, and I’m concerned that the church is taking their version of spiritual warfare and the spiritual world from Hollywood. You know? Instead of recognizing that the spirit of darkness, that Satan himself, was defeated by Christ on the cross. He’s still active. There’s still evil in the world. There’s no question that we are encountering doctrines of demons. We’re talking about that right now. But that every knee should bow—and that includes every spiritual knee. Every entity. Every human, and, I believe, every spiritual being will all bow their knees to Jesus Christ. That should free us from the bondage of fear—the fear that we have imposed upon ourselves by taking our spiritual worldview from Hollywood—because I’ve seen too many examples of that, Tom. I know you have as well.
But then, we’ve also taken the other approach in the Christian world, which says, “This stuff—aaah, you know—maybe it’s there; it might be there, but it doesn’t really affect me. I’ve never seen anything like this before.” And so either we become so fascinated, where we take the approach that there literally is a demon behind every rock, or we say he doesn’t exist at all! I’m seeing both extremes within Christendom, and it bothers me, because the biblical worldview is the spiritual realm is real, the demonic is real, it shouldn’t bind you or control you, because you are under the blood of the Lamb. “Every knee will bow,” every one. Why are we afraid of them? Why are we afraid of our neighbors? Why are we afraid of what’s happening in the culture? Concern? Yes. Fear? No!
Tom: I want to throw this in here, because Dave and I dealt with it in America, the Sorcerer’s New Apprentice. But we quote a man—a Nobel Prize-winning brain researcher and neurophysiologist—his name was Sir John Eccles. And he calls the brain “a machine that a ghost can operate.” So, I’m getting into this, because somebody says, “Well, how does that work? Because some people have out-of-body experiences, some people have these visions, and so on, and they believe it’s real. Where does this stuff come from, and how does it work?”
Well, here’s a theory—again, by a man who…that’s his business: Neurophysiologist, and so on. So he believes that normally one’s own spirit—okay, we’re body, mind, and spirit. Scripture lays that out very clearly. It’s our spirit that operates the brain. So, the brain is, again, like a computer. It’s a computer, but it’s not…the computer doesn’t run itself. It’s the spirit that runs the computer. So he believes that normally one’s own spirit is the “ghost” that operates the brain. But under the right circumstances, another “ghost,” or spirit, can interpose itself between the person’s spirit and his brain, taking control of the person’s mind and body, resulting in demon possession.
And if it doesn’t go that far, it certainly…I mean, when we open the door for that, we open ourselves to that kind of entity. You know, it’s like having an image being played in our minds, and this becomes real to us, but it’s not! It’s the demon that’s doing these things.
Now, does it happen all the time and in every case and in every situation? No. God certainly allows those things to take place, but it’s based on the volition—the will of the person—you know, rejecting God. What have you got left? No! It’s not a good thing.
So, I like to bring that out because, you know, if they say, “No, we don’t believe in the spiritual realm,” well, here’s a scientist—a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who will give you an example of how this could take place, and I think he’s right on.
Carl: I think so, too! You know, Tom, I know we’re almost out of time, but it just re-enforces the fact that we have to ask the question, “Who do we trust?” Do we trust the Bible? Let us say that we now live in a culture where doctrines of demons becomes the worldview of the day. Who is it that we trust? Do we trust Scripture? Do we trust Jesus Christ? Or do we trust our own interpretation of a spiritual world that’s becoming more manifest, and certainly, certainly changing of hearts and minds. It really is an issue of winning and losing souls.
Tom: Yeah, and that’s what the battle is about. Certainly God has given us free will. Dave Hunt wrote a book called What Love Is This?, and it had to do with the character of God, basically. That God is not willing that any should perish, but He has to give us a free will, or then, as the title of Dave’s book is, if that’s not the case, then what is love? You know, what love is this, if we’re predestined or predetermined to act a certain way—psychic determination, whatever you want to call it? No, there has to be that option. There has to be that choice for a God who loves us and who looks for love in return. And He’s enabled all of us to step up to be able to do this, if we are willing! So that’s no small item here; no small issue.
And, folks, that’s our heart’s cry. We’re going to move on to some more things, the Lord willing, next week and so on, from Carl’s book. We’re going to deal with some other issues here, but this is a critical issue, and, again, sadly, tragically, we’ve seen my country, my state, open the door to this in a huge way—the legalization of these drugs that are the doorway to not just altered states of consciousness, but in that, to the spiritual realm, which is the realm of the Adversary, the god of this world, Satan himself.
So, Carl, you know and I know there’s a purpose for what we’ve dealt with here—how critical it is and where we are. And, again, this is tragic. It’s sad. It’s overwhelming. But God hasn’t left us to our own devices here. He’s given us warnings. He’s given us what we need to know and what we need to understand. He protects us if we’re willing to come under His protection. Like the children of Issachar, we need to be aware of the times, and in their case, what Israel should do, the same for the body of Christ right now.
So, Carl, again, thanks for your input, and Lord willing, next week we’ll move onto another subject.